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On May 12 2011 23:33 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:24 Wallaaa wrote:
He compared thorzain vs MC to a high school football game hehe.
Honestly I disagree with a lot of the stuff, I think nada proves as a good example of what would happen when sc1 pros switch over. Jaedong and Flash are going to do just as well as any sc2 pro currently because SC2 suffers from somewhat of a skill-cap, much like if a professional number counter were to compete in a event where you count to 10, sure he can count to 6409358475943 but it isn't needed for the event. Which pro right now as reach the skill cap of SC2? Perfect micro, macro, multiple prong attacks that don't have idle units doing nothing, constant production of buildings, well perceived decisions based on sparse information, etc? SC2 may have a lower skill cap. I don't believe I have seen a single pro reach it yet. And to reach it, it takes practice and dedication, and a hell lot of games. BW pros are set up for this sort of regimen.
Yep, this is correct.
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great article, but i think the pure game grinding that is required in sc:bw isnt really possible yet in sc2, Simply because the game hasnt been figured out that yet. If you were to grind games in sc:bw its an easy choice : 3 hatch muta vs the anti 3 hatch muta build.
But what about sc2
reactor hellion ? Last month it was 2rax expand
and what is the zerg gonna do? infestor ling? last month it was ling bling muta
The game is changing too much at this point.
Flash would go to MVP and say 'Whats the standard tvp build?'
and MVP would respond :
' well supernova goes cloack banshees and select 2 rax expand but thorzain...'
I think if Flash transitions in a year, when the dust has settled he will become a champ no problem but the game isnt stable enough yet.
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This post seems like it is total poison for the growth of e-Sports. The fact that it has been published on TL is not a positive thing; this causes division between groups that should be moving towards the same goal. In the future, please remove such negative bias in these articles.
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Very good read. I'm a little disheartened by the amount of scrutiny editorials are receiving nowadays. Regardless of your opinion, can some part of us at least enjoy & appreciate the content being put out there? Think about it this way, would you rather have no content at all?
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On May 12 2011 23:33 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:31 Loanshark wrote:On May 12 2011 23:20 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote:
I gotta agree with this entirely.
MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else.
You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW.
And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past. So you are basically saying that a higher skill ceiling is a thing of the past? Really? True, MBS and automine might have gotten the game off the ground, but they are also, in a way, preventing the scene from ever reaching high flight. Isn't that a very narrowminded approach to game design? "Lets put in obstacles for the player instead of actually interesting mechanics". I'm hoping the expansions add more stuff that great players can use to get ahead. I don't want old, broken mechanics back just to add difficulty.
I totally agree with you, i hope we will see some new stuff in the next expansions.
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This really isn't that informative a post. The "elephant" isn't so big.
Everyone knows SC2 has a lower skill ceiling than SC1.
Everyone knows that there's still a significant amount of $$$ in the Korean SC1 scene.
Everyone knows that SC1 progamers have contracts they aren't likely to walk out on if they're decent.
Everyone knows that the SC2 GSL winners are players that haven't accomplished much in SC1.
So what's the point in taking the piss out of the current state of SC2?
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Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that this article even made it to the front page. It reeks of BW elitism and Sc2 hate and the fact that this website has gained a shitload of exposure thanks to Sc2 it makes no sense to me.
You are of course right, BW pros are incredibly talented RTS players and are superior to our current Sc2 stars. Does that mean the whole scene is a farce? I guess Jinro, Huk and Haypro can pack their bags and go home, since their career is built upon this "farce". I guess GOM can cancel their tournaments as well. Whats the point anyway since the BW Gods are vastly superior to the terrible Sc2 players. Do you even realize how stupid that sounds?
Starcraft 2 has a long way to go until it catches up with BW, if it ever does catch up.
I just cant understand why you feel the need to belittle the game and its players and basically say "hey your achievements in this game are fucking worthless compared to these guys over here. Yeah come on over and bask in their divine aura of awesomeness"
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On May 12 2011 23:38 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
great article, but i think the pure game grinding that is required in sc:bw isnt really possible yet in sc2, Simply because the game hasnt been figured out that yet. If you were to grind games in sc:bw its an easy choice : 3 hatch muta vs the anti 3 hatch muta build.
But what about sc2
reactor hellion ? Last month it was 2rax expand
and what is the zerg gonna do? infestor ling? last month it was ling bling muta
The game is changing too much at this point.
Flash would go to MVP and say 'Whats the standard tvp build?'
and MVP would respond :
' well supernova goes cloack banshees and select 2 rax expand but thorzain...'
I think if Flash transitions in a year, when the dust has settled he will become a champ no problem but the game isnt stable enough yet.
The more games you grind, the more likely you will find stable builds that respond vs multiple builds. Being capable of playing 100 games a day vs 40 games a day not only improves mechanics, but it also gives you a better game sense; after getting hit by a certain timing attack 30 times in a row, I'm sure you KNOW when it's going to hit while modifying your builds.
BW builds change even now, it's not completely set in stone. It has been out longer, so it is MORE stable, but it is not as though it is unchanging.
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"The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written."
I thought this point had some validity. Makes me think the mindset and work ethic of BW pros will certainly help them rise to the top, but it is a different game.
Automine and MBS maybe lower the initial skill threshold to be a great player but I don't think it necessarily lowers the skill cap, it just leaves more room for greater things to happen.
In a way, you were rewarded in BW for having perfect macro when it came to sending workers to mine and queueing units in each individual building. This was something a player/SC enthusiast could appreciate because they know it's difficult to pull everything off.
In SC2, players are rewarded for of course macroing well but there's more time and APM they can devote to micro. We probably are no where near the skill cap for SC2 and it's my opinion as a spectator (not just a player) that I would rather see insane micro and unit movement etc. then see what the player's are doing and thinking, "Wow, that is really impressive they are able to do that micro while sending workers to mine mid-engagement."
Of course this is with the assumption you could always do more micro with your units if you don't have to devote as much time/APM to macro-oriented things. I think that's a safe assumption.
Is BW harder? Yes, no doubt.Is what the BW pros like Flash do mind-blowing? Yes, I can't comprehend playing at that level.
Does SC2 have the potential to be like that? I think so.
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Lovely read!
But you need to let SC2 get an established foothold before hitting any conclusions.
At the same time, as many other people have stated in their comments.
SC2 has not been figured out yet. Far from it actually... it has just started. Even blizzard is figuring things out. When shit is figured out completely.. other things will also be written in stone.
PS: I totally agree that the current SC2 champs need a completely different mindset and work ethic tho... Which they should start working on before the RTS gods of BW comes over the mountain! If not.. then it just might be to late.
Peace!
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On May 12 2011 23:37 Callous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:33 JinDesu wrote:On May 12 2011 23:24 Wallaaa wrote:
He compared thorzain vs MC to a high school football game hehe.
Honestly I disagree with a lot of the stuff, I think nada proves as a good example of what would happen when sc1 pros switch over. Jaedong and Flash are going to do just as well as any sc2 pro currently because SC2 suffers from somewhat of a skill-cap, much like if a professional number counter were to compete in a event where you count to 10, sure he can count to 6409358475943 but it isn't needed for the event. Which pro right now as reach the skill cap of SC2? Perfect micro, macro, multiple prong attacks that don't have idle units doing nothing, constant production of buildings, well perceived decisions based on sparse information, etc? SC2 may have a lower skill cap. I don't believe I have seen a single pro reach it yet. And to reach it, it takes practice and dedication, and a hell lot of games. BW pros are set up for this sort of regimen. Yep, this is correct.
Micro isn't that necessary in sc2 is more positional based played which is much easier to do than microing each unit and getting surrounds as you would in wc3, which is why a micro god like moon isn't doing as well as he could because he can't utilize his skill set to his maximum potential. sc1 is much harder than sc2 but being a amazing muta micro-er with mutas in sc1 isnt going to make you better at muta micro in sc2 because it isn't necessary.
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The good point you make certainly illuminates the fact that those who were doing well in BW when SC2 came out weren't going to switch just because there's a new game to play, this is fairly obvious to anyone who realizes that you don't really quit while you're ahead. Of course we're going to get the lower tier BW players to jump into SC2 immediately.
However, your constant bashing and belittling of SC2 as a game, it's playerbase, fans, and community reduces your post from "SC2 hasn't even begun to see the best RTS players in the world" to "BW pros are going to own all you fat, lazy nubs". It is more emotional than it needs to be and does express frustration more than anything else.
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On May 12 2011 23:27 kardinal wrote:
All the starcraft 1 players will read this while nodding their heads and humming agreements that they were right all along, that starcraft 2 was, is and forever will be trash until it gets more of the starcraft 1 influence.
Starcraft 2 players will read this and be offended by the starcraft 1 elitist saying their game is trash, watching trashy players play trashy games and in effect make the viewers trash too.
When I first clicked on the link I thought I would get to read a well thought out interesting article but what a disappointing flame bait. Maybe the author intended it to sound less horribly biased and more neutral but if that's the case, he failed miserably.
There is a reason why there's a SC2 section and a SC1 section of the forum.
I was terrible at brood war and only played LAN with friends from time to time, so I can be qualified as part of the "stacraft 2 players" which you're talking about.
And I would say... Man this article is SO true. I absolutely agree with it. I mean sure, the competition is not "a farce" but it is nowhere near the level of where it would be if players such as Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would play it. They would "unlock" a whole new level of play so to say.
Good job to whoever wrote it, loved the title as well 
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On May 12 2011 23:40 bruteMax wrote:
This really isn't that informative a post. The "elephant" isn't so big.
Everyone knows SC2 has a lower skill ceiling than SC1.
Everyone knows that there's still a significant amount of $$$ in the Korean SC1 scene.
Everyone knows that SC1 progamers have contracts they aren't likely to walk out on if they're decent.
Everyone knows that the SC2 GSL winners are players that haven't accomplished much in SC1.
So what's the point in taking the piss out of the current state of SC2?
How could you know that ? The game isn't even finished yet ...
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Great article Intrigue. Enjoyed the whole thing.
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I love the truth in this article.
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Sexy write up! Although my neck hurts from nodding to what I was reading the whole time xD
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Well If J or F ever switch to SC2 and dont dominate !!
That would mean that you dont actually need godly Micro, Macro and Multitasking mechanics to be good at this game...
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just imagine NFL association going public that "they think the sport was better 5 years ago", lets say 3 days before Superbowl. why on earth would they do such a thing. cough teamliquid star league cough.
front page, i just cant belive it, still ))
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EPT
