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I don't understand this article.
The difference here is how much time each game has had dedicated to it. BW is over a decade old, SC2 only nearing it's first anniversary. Compare how people are playing in SC2 today with how people played BW eleven years ago. And now think about that: BW has had eleven extra years to form, eleven YEARS of players perfecting the game. So, "SC2 is a different game" is very much the answer here. The core skills remain the same, but unless players can time travel and see what the future holds, they will have to deal with still being in the "discovery phase" as SC2 takes form, and indeed Blizzard continues to make huge changes in patches.
There was a time in Basketball when the dunk didn't even exist. And then there was a time when it did exist, but everyone considered it a joke. Today, it is as viable a strategy as a lay-up, and there are even other maneuvers that involve the setting up of a dunk. Sure, it's still a spectacle at heart, but it evolved into something more over long periods of time. Other examples exist everywhere in sports. SC2 simply needs time to evolve and find itself, and the players competing against one another and playing the game are the main propagation of this. If nothing else, if and when the BW pros do switch, they can thank the current SC2 players for getting past the wobbly parts for them. 
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Well, I really enjoyed reading the article, especially after OP previously dropped a hint in another thread that he was writing it. It has some good stats and opinions that support the nagging feelings that followers of both BW and SC2 have been getting for some time now.
Anyways, this thread has certainly become hotter than the surface of the Sun. Although I've always felt that BW fanboys could be quite aggressively passionate about BW, I underestimated how SC2 fanboys could THIS passionate about SC2.
I was expecting a more civil, productive discussion in this thread instead of so much anger, hate, and fire.
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The whole reason Esports is on fire right now throughout the world is because of SC2. I'm sure if you look at the number of registered users for TL, they have skyrocketed since the release of SC2. Not sure why TL would want to front page this as it is crapping on a lot of new fans and users. I being one of them.
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On May 12 2011 23:40 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:33 karpo wrote:On May 12 2011 23:31 Loanshark wrote:On May 12 2011 23:20 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote:
I gotta agree with this entirely.
MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else.
You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW.
And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past. So you are basically saying that a higher skill ceiling is a thing of the past? Really? True, MBS and automine might have gotten the game off the ground, but they are also, in a way, preventing the scene from ever reaching high flight. Isn't that a very narrowminded approach to game design? "Lets put in obstacles for the player instead of actually interesting mechanics". I'm hoping the expansions add more stuff that great players can use to get ahead. I don't want old, broken mechanics back just to add difficulty. I totally agree with you, i hope we will see some new stuff in the next expansions.
I am dumbfounded that you think the reason SC2 won't be as good as BW is because of MBS and Automine. These things in BW are not there because they wanted the game to be hard, it was there because of limitations. Were they useful to the viewing experience of spectators? Let me put it this way, I've never heard a commentator say "well look he doesn't have idle probes that is so amazing!@?!!@!@$!$!$!". In a spectator perspective, this type of thing loses its novelty, and it just becomes expected that all of his workers will be mining. The only time it will be noticed is if the player messes up big time. Sure, a spectator can say "look how what he is doing is so hard, doing all this stuff AND doing the micro/macro is impressive!" But after a while, that was the expectation. I would argue that for the spectator, it is irrelevant.
Now let us consider what this does for the player. Essentially, we are asking the player to rub his stomach in a circular motion with one hand and tap his head with the other regularly while playing chess. While some of us will have their jaws dropped that they can do it (for the first few times we see it), it is actually meaningless to the game. It is a strategy game where you have micro and macro. Would you rather half the effort of the player go into dragging SCVs into the mineral lines or clicking on barracks instead of strategy?
What you will see in this game, is that it will develop its own skill set. In any competitive game, people will find ways to be better than the competition. If strategy is a big part of the game, then strategy will be how players differentiate from each other.
Does the game need help? Is it perfect? No. I hope there will be more strategical choices and more things for the better strategical players to separate themselves from the rest. I'm sure by the last expansion, there will be more mechanics that the players can handle and you will see quite the dynamic. Or maybe not. Who knows.
But asking the players to have to do mind-numbing actions just to construct a higher skill ceiling is an insult to every Real-time STRATEGY player out there, just like how asking a grandmaster chess player to clap 7 times between each move would be an insult to him.
TL;DR I am dumbfounded that you would rather have MBS/automine rather than actual strategical ways to increase the skill cap.
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On May 12 2011 23:26 omegaslast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:22 karpo wrote:On May 12 2011 23:20 Knuppe wrote:
The skillcap of SC2 is so low compared to BW it would be an insult to Flash or Jaedong to ask them play the game.
MBS and automine and unlimited unit selection are just 2 things that needs to be removed for the game to even come close to BW. First you disrespect more or less everyone who enjoy SC2. Then you list three things yet can't even count them properly. The things you listed are things that any new game should have, it's a hindrance in BW not a feature. but dont you see? the best chess player isnt the best unless he can juggle 3 bowling pins while moving his pieces. real time strategy is better if theres more needless complications for the player that dont have anything to do with strategy and just weed those out that cant keep up with "busy work"
I think there would be a good enough correlation to success in chess and starcraft II. It's obviously not 100%, but I know for one that chess player tend to be good at poker, and there is substantial evidence for some poker->Starcraft II skill cross-over. Maybe you shouldn't consider a 35 year old grandmaster who spends all his time analyzing midgame variants with his team, but rather someone in his teens that's good at speed chess.
Also, I think the skill cap in SC2 is far from reached. What MBS and AM do is simply increase the baseline of skill, lowering the apparent difference in skill at the highest level. In this scenario your mechanical superiority only matters a little bit and you can't use that skill to make up for build order deficits. Still, if you look at pro gamers, there's so many little mistakes they make that cause them to lose games; good examples would be the awful infestor control many zergs have after spending the first couple of months of the game solely attack-moving armies. Another is how terran can get a lot more effectiveness out of drops if they micro correctly.
This does come in bursts however, in SC:BW you always need that kind of speed, while in SC2 it's only at specific times. Still, it's possible to improve here.
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If you watch the live streams of BW players, it seems their APM is much higher than SC2 players. Part of that is because the game requires tons of stuff like individual casting and micro probes to minerals. I think Blizzard left stuff like that instead of patching it simply to leave the game relatively untouched so that those who have worked that into their mechanics aren't back on a level playing field with those who haven't.
I'm glad they are patching the game as they are and making it as good as possible and when all the patches come out, if they are still making major adjustments, then we can talk.
There really are very few BW elite, the one we can look to is July and he has done very well. It's a very small sample set so who knows, but yes, they'd probably rock the house.
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Hahaha, I think I just realized something. You know how recently a thread was made explaining TL's ban of IdrA ? This allowed such an incredible amount of venting in one thread it was amazing. This thread serves the same purpose. Soon we'll reach 100+ pages worth of rants from all sides and for a while the forums and livestreams will be quiet again, because everyone's energy went into here.
Clever move ^_^
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The real elephant in the room is TL.net.
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post.
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Don't forget to thank Starcraft 2 for providing 75% of the audience for this article.
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On May 12 2011 23:55 DoomsVille wrote:
This entire article is flame bait. All it has accomplished is to further divide the SC2 and BW communities on this forum. And that is the exact opposite of what TL should stand for.
Honestly, I can't believe this is on the front page. It's like you want the two communities to remain divided.
I mean yea, I agree with the OP for the most part. The top level BW pros will dominate SC2. It is kind of obvious that they would. But the entire article is written in such a condescending tone and really cheapens the entire point it was trying to make.
Personally I propose this thread be locked and end the flame war. That is all this is. TL I am very disappointed.
Yep... the article is nice and objective and then it goes off the subjective deep end and the conclusions that the OP draws from his data indicate that he has an agenda. The agenda is to patronize those who are enjoying any form of competitive SC2 gaming. He unfortunately doesnt even make a valid conclusion as my previous posts talk about. The reason he failed to do so is because his confirmation bias says "hey, find any information that might possibly imply that BW is a better competitive scene for now, and that it is a better game in general, and we can fallaciously beg the question"
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
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On May 12 2011 23:26 omegaslast wrote:
but dont you see? the best chess player isnt the best unless he can juggle 3 bowling pins while moving his pieces. real time strategy is better if theres more needless complications for the player that dont have anything to do with strategy and just weed those out that cant keep up with "busy work"
wait...... what?
i don't...... agree......
i'm so lost right now.
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I'm not all that familiar with the Korean starcraft history but not quite a year after SC1 was released people like Flash and JD was tearing through the scene? Or was it years later after an expansion etc?
If it was later then I don't really find the worth in this article, many games are similar and they all need time to mature and for stars to grow.
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Although there is a very serious competative aspect about sc2 its different from what BW now is. To make this comparison I feel like we should wait a couple of years. With two more expensions comming up, it will take probably around 10 years 
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
temp bans of contributing community members.
Do you have an example for this?
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On May 13 2011 00:10 Scraps wrote:
Don't forget to thank Starcraft 2 for providing 75% of the audience for this article.
75%????!?!?!?! They have the numbers, its much more than that.
On May 13 2011 00:10 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:26 omegaslast wrote:
but dont you see? the best chess player isnt the best unless he can juggle 3 bowling pins while moving his pieces. real time strategy is better if theres more needless complications for the player that dont have anything to do with strategy and just weed those out that cant keep up with "busy work" wait...... what? i don't...... agree...... i'm so lost right now.
He is being sarcastic. Unless you are trolling 
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While I have no doubt that the top BW players could have an immediate impact on the SC2 scene (aka winning a gsl rather quickly, dominating etc) I am not sure why you say there are 300 pros or semi pros that could come into SC2 and dominate right away. If they could, why haven't they? While JD, Flash and some others make quite a bit of money, surely half of that 300 or more is making less than what they could be making by dominating all the GSLs, IEMs, WCGs. And if their skills transition so flawlessly, it should be quite easy for them.
What is their reason for not switching?
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On May 13 2011 00:05 twincannon wrote:I don't understand this article. The difference here is how much time each game has had dedicated to it. BW is over a decade old, SC2 only nearing it's first anniversary. Compare how people are playing in SC2 today with how people played BW eleven years ago. And now think about that: BW has had eleven extra years to form, eleven YEARS of players perfecting the game. So, "SC2 is a different game" is very much the answer here. The core skills remain the same, but unless players can time travel and see what the future holds, they will have to deal with still being in the "discovery phase" as SC2 takes form, and indeed Blizzard continues to make huge changes in patches. There was a time in Basketball when the dunk didn't even exist. And then there was a time when it did exist, but everyone considered it a joke. Today, it is as viable a strategy as a lay-up, and there are even other maneuvers that involve the setting up of a dunk. Sure, it's still a spectacle at heart, but it evolved into something more over long periods of time. Other examples exist everywhere in sports. SC2 simply needs time to evolve and find itself, and the players competing against one another and playing the game are the main propagation of this. If nothing else, if and when the BW pros do switch, they can thank the current SC2 players for getting past the wobbly parts for them.
weird... I was going to write this exact same thing lol. I'll add a lil more too it.
The people that are dominating Brood War are playing a already figured out game. Magic Boxing didn't come around till a while after release. Marine Splitting vs Banelings (Thank you Foxer) All the techniques have already been mastered for Brood War which is why whoever has the best mechanics wins BW, or thats my theory however.
JulyZerg who was one of the legends had massed thousands of games during the beta and was still not good. The skills don't transfer as easily as people think it would for BW players. Which is why "SC2 is a different game" is actually a legit argument.
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Thanks for the exellent read. I was wondering when the first final edit about SC2 was going to be written.
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On May 13 2011 00:08 Armathai wrote:
Hahaha, I think I just realized something. You know how recently a thread was made explaining TL's ban of IdrA ? This allowed such an incredible amount of venting in one thread it was amazing. This thread serves the same purpose. Soon we'll reach 100+ pages worth of rants from all sides and for a while the forums and livestreams will be quiet again, because everyone's energy went into here.
Clever move ^_^
Hmmm... perhaps all the fire in this thread really does serve a purpose.
Honestly, I did my fair share of SC2 vs BW arguments in another thread once, and now I just don't have the energy or interest to argue any more. Perhaps venting is a remedy for calming down the entire forums.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51716 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The real elephant in the room is TL.net.
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post.
lol conspiracies.:p
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EPT
