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I find this article both frustrating and informative for someone likemyself who just recently (a year ago) got somewhat into the RTS scene. The article as a whole does point out a few things that are true but the tone of the article is set to make us who love SC2 as it is feel, well what exactly? Not yoj about the present thats for sure.
There is no denying that the professinal BW players would most of them do really well if/when they switch over to SC2, but why does there need to be a discussion in the tone of SC:BW vs SC2?
They both have a place atm mostly due to the economic aspects behind the BW scene and how it has been delt with moving over to SC2.
The best thing for e-Sports would imho been close down BW after the ongoing Pro Season that was underway when SC2 was released, this however was not what happened and I do belive it is because of the dissagrements between Blizzard and the Powers that be in the BW scene.(this is higly speculativ from my part though)
Also read somehwere in all these pages of text that ppl belive that we are allready in the golden age of foreign SC2, I truly belive this to be false. There is as of now no real progaming houses that I know of (except the TLO and friends house in Stockholm Sweden) nor have we been able to spread e-Sports into the general community through televised events, when this happens and it will happen then we might be headed into the true golden age of not just SC2 but e-Sports as a whole.
// Stabbe
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Wheres the elephant? Great read tho
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I don't see why people are getting so defensive. Even if you didn't watch BW you can definitely tell that the current pros haven't even gotten close to the skill cap that exists in SC2. Thats a good thing because that means games are only going to get better as players get more practice in and better players come in the system. Its a given that any of the s-class BW players would wreck SC2 right now if only because of their teams and practice schedules. I have no doubt that SC2 players practice hard but I doubt their practice environments are as good as those available for A team BW players. In addition to that, I doubt that the majority of SC2 players practice as hard as the average A teamer in BW, I mean Flash practiced till his fingers bled. Flash would probably wreck any RTS if he put the same amount of effort into it. Once SC2 can be seen as a stable platform, more organized teams will come out.
Bottom line: The current SC2 scene has a long way to go before it can match the state of the BW scene in KR but there's room to grow and what that means is even better games in the future.
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On May 12 2011 23:45 Wallaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:37 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 23:33 JinDesu wrote:On May 12 2011 23:24 Wallaaa wrote:
He compared thorzain vs MC to a high school football game hehe.
Honestly I disagree with a lot of the stuff, I think nada proves as a good example of what would happen when sc1 pros switch over. Jaedong and Flash are going to do just as well as any sc2 pro currently because SC2 suffers from somewhat of a skill-cap, much like if a professional number counter were to compete in a event where you count to 10, sure he can count to 6409358475943 but it isn't needed for the event. Which pro right now as reach the skill cap of SC2? Perfect micro, macro, multiple prong attacks that don't have idle units doing nothing, constant production of buildings, well perceived decisions based on sparse information, etc? SC2 may have a lower skill cap. I don't believe I have seen a single pro reach it yet. And to reach it, it takes practice and dedication, and a hell lot of games. BW pros are set up for this sort of regimen. Yep, this is correct. Micro isn't that necessary in sc2 is more positional based played which is much easier to do than microing each unit and getting surrounds as you would in wc3, which is why a micro god like moon isn't doing as well as he could because he can't utilize his skill set to his maximum potential. sc1 is much harder than sc2 but being a amazing muta micro-er with mutas in sc1 isnt going to make you better at muta micro in sc2 because it isn't necessary.
I've watched Moon's micro. He's amazing with low amounts of units. 8-10 zerglings, and he will have such amazing micro at pulling weak ones back, and focusing down workers.
However, in larger battles, his micro does not shine. He also does not have great multiple army management. I don't know if it's a limitation of his micro (War3 vs SC2), if he is overwhelmed by other factors (macro), or if he had enough practice.
Micro doesn't just involve selecting units and moving them. Decision making during micro makes micro what it is. I can certain split my marines to avoid a decent amount of banelings. I can't split my marines during a baneling muta attack in terrain with my tanks to ensure maximum survival. Neither can I send in my baneling muta ball to ensure the snipe of all the marines so that my remaining mutas can sweep the tank force. These sort of things HAVE to evolve out - watching 1a of a big ball isn't very fun.
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Cute article but this is nothing more than a BW elitism rant
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On May 12 2011 23:40 bruteMax wrote:
This really isn't that informative a post. The "elephant" isn't so big.
Everyone knows SC2 has a lower skill ceiling than SC1.
Everyone knows that there's still a significant amount of $$$ in the Korean SC1 scene.
Everyone knows that SC1 progamers have contracts they aren't likely to walk out on if they're decent.
Everyone knows that the SC2 GSL winners are players that haven't accomplished much in SC1.
So what's the point in taking the piss out of the current state of SC2?
Yeah, the last question is exactly what was going through my mind when I read this. What was the point? SC2 is one year old, it's still evolving and everyone knows it's not as developed as BW. I don't really think there's an elephant. I don't really need to read some hypothetical bullshit about BW pros tearing the SC2 pros if they wanted to... I'll be glad to read about it when it happens. Until then I will enjoy the growth of the scene and the best games I can find. I don't really feel the need to whine about the state of the game, I just enjoy it as it is.
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wow. To the guy bitching about MBS and rallying SCVs to minerals you are either dumb or a broodwars elitist. These mechanics were introduced into the game to reward innovative strategies over high APM. The game still requires lots of multitasking; bio drops were highly buffed in sc2 compared to BW. But in sc2 the cleaver strategist is bound to win, not the key-pressing robot.
I do agree that smart casting has ruined the game. The problem is not that any noobie can cast the spells; the problem is that spells are too strong or even broken, so if a player abuses of spell casters he may dominate the game. But also the fact that you can't do much to avoid the effect of spells, or the fact that protoss has all the spell casters in the game and the other two races have one or two that are useful in only some situations.
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This entire article is flame bait. All it has accomplished is to further divide the SC2 and BW communities on this forum. And that is the exact opposite of what TL should stand for.
Honestly, I can't believe this is on the front page. It's like you want the two communities to remain divided.
I mean yea, I agree with the OP for the most part. The top level BW pros will dominate SC2. It is kind of obvious that they would. But the entire article is written in such a condescending tone and really cheapens the entire point it was trying to make.
Btw, I'm going to try to end this mechanics vs. strategy debate.
First off, it is clear that the mechanics of SC2 are much easier. So hypothetically, lets suppose there is a BW pro that has outstanding mechanics, but his game sense isn't the best. Well his transition to SC2 would likely be harder because his outstanding mechanics don't give him as much of an edge in SC2 as they did in BW. This should be clear to anyone.
On the other hand, there could be former BW pros that didn't have the best mechanics but were very cerebral players. They are set up to succeed in SC2 because their mechanics won't negatively impact them as much.
Flash/JD/Bisu etc. are players with both outstanding mechanics and game sense. Nothing will stop them from rolling the SC2 community (except the emergence of another such prodigy... which will happen at some point).
The BW pros below Flash/JD/Bisu but still above the mediocre ones that have switched over will have the mechanics to do well (no chance of succeeding in BW without strong mechanics) but the real question will be whether their game sense will be up to par. For the majority of them, yea most likely it won't be a problem. But it is foolish to think every single one of them will roll over all current SC2 players. Many of them just won't be as cerebral as some of the current SC2 pros.
Personally I propose this thread be locked and end the flame war. That is all this is. TL I am very disappointed.
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Phew, I'm glad this wasn't what I thought it would be. Pretty interesting article and I can't agree more but I am not too worried about the competition reaching a higher level, a similar thing happened in BW too. While some talented players with not as much practice, eventually players who devoted a lot of time to train for the game started gaining an edge, which lead to more and more training time so that they can keep up.
I've been thinking about this since GSL2 where Fruitdealer said in interviews that he was not practicing much and that he was drinking and partying a lot. I think eventually SC2 will too reach that point where just to stay competitive you need to have a good work ethic and lots of practice.
As you mentioned the Slayers team is a sign of this, while they are a new team, because they have a more structured training time they have been gaining an edge.The other teams will have to eventually step up their game if they want to remain competitive. And yeah anyone familiar with BW knows that many of the top players would dominate SC2, not only because of mechanics, but because they have tons of experience and awesome decision making.
And I do think that this whole "foreigners can compete evenly with Koreans" thing will eventually crash and burn unless players step up their game too, because even top foreigners seem to be taking practice time in a more "leisure(sp?)ly" way.
Sorry for the bad english.
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On May 12 2011 23:33 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:30 omegaslast wrote:On May 12 2011 23:27 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:22 omegaslast wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2 Why play a game where you have to win 300k, when you can make 200k on salary plus winnings from tournaments your going to dominate anyway? I really don't understand thins argument. hundreds of BW players are not getting a 200k salary plus winnings. youre insane to think that. Im going to go out on a limb and say you didnt even fully read my post. Just keep in mind these guys have a definite income when it comes to broodwar. A lot higher than any team would offer in SC2. Also, the OP's point has yet to be proven, so they don't even know if they'd dominate. BW is just a very sound spot for many Korean progamers to be in right now.
"These guys" refer to a lot less than a couple of hundred. The OP has a point, hes just completely overestimated how many BW players would dominate at SC2. I think the amount of BW pros that could switch over and dominate are around 20-30. Like you said they have a high enough salary to keep them comfortable and dont really have much motivation to switch over.
Ill let the OP speak for himself
Low level players in Brood War make little or nothing on proteams. They help more successful players practice, and otherwise spend their time desperately clawing their way up in-house rankings for a shot at Proleague. There is no respect or fame, only the daily grind to maybe get better, maybe move up to A-team, and maybe maybe play a televised game.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
300 current pros? many of which are making crap money right now, but apparently could be crushing the competition!
300 pros is a total hyperbole, and i think the OP wants that number to be huge so he can justify his belief that any sc2 competition right now is just "high school football"
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Good read, but comparing SC2 to high school football is a little bit insulting.
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I wanted to see at the end of the article...
"User was temp banned for this post."
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love this thread 10x
and I think every sc2 pro right now should be thinking "god forbid if a top bw player ever switched we would all be doomed"
just my opinion of things though =D
only downside of people like jaedong/bisuflash etc switching to SC2 is that they wouldn't play SC1 anymore
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On May 12 2011 13:56 oXoCube wrote:
So Basically you're saying that if the best RTS players in the world started playing SC2 fiull time they would be pretty good?
Go Figure.
Pretty much.
But props for the time and effort spent to include stats and everything to make the full blown article around that.
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Damn, this article is amazing. Thanks!
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On May 12 2011 23:53 Arcanne wrote:
Cute article but this is nothing more than a BW elitism rant
I do have to agree with this, I think the only one who can see an elephant in the room is intrigue.
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On May 12 2011 23:27 kardinal wrote:
All the starcraft 1 players will read this while nodding their heads and humming agreements that they were right all along, that starcraft 2 was, is and forever will be trash until it gets more of the starcraft 1 influence.
Starcraft 2 players will read this and be offended by the starcraft 1 elitist saying their game is trash, watching trashy players play trashy games and in effect make the viewers trash too.
When I first clicked on the link I thought I would get to read a well thought out interesting article but what a disappointing flame bait. Maybe the author intended it to sound less horribly biased and more neutral but if that's the case, he failed miserably.
There is a reason why there's a SC2 section and a SC1 section of the forum.
Was ThorZaIN vs oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
They are not saying the games are trash. Just that they are not as high level as possible.
And no i'm not nodding cause he said out loud that SC2 is a bad game. The article never said that. I feel satisfaction, because finally someone said out loud that the players currently dominating SC2 are actually bad. Bad amongst RTS pros i mean. Of course they dominate this new game right now, but with their mentality they wont last long. And their BW results just shows you, that something is wrong with their mentality (or raw talent)...
And the thing that pisses me and a lot of people off, is the hype they get. The praises of how good and awesome, and clever, etc. they are.
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On May 12 2011 23:27 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:22 omegaslast wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2 Why play a game where you have to win 300k, when you can make 200k on salary plus winnings from tournaments your going to dominate anyway? I really don't understand this argument.
Because they're so good (according to the OP) that they would wipe the floor with the champions of today, and win every single tournament they get into?
That would mean, in 10~ months, 7 GSL (85k x3 + 50k + 50k + 30k + 50k = 435k~), DreamHack (15k~), TSL (30k~), and other minor/major events. Making that almost 450k in less than a year.
Certainly assuring (according to OP, they'd beat anyone, so...) more than twice of what they'd have the chance to get in a year.
If it's so easy, what's troubling them? They get too much money already?
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On May 12 2011 23:59 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
love this thread 10x
and I think every sc2 pro right now should be thinking "god forbid if a top bw player ever switched we would all be doomed"
just my opinion of things though =D
Why? I would LOVE to see BW pros make the switch. Either they lose and it's a huge story, or they dominate and raise the bar.
I never watched BW and never will, although I have huge respect for the skill level of the players. I don't understand the game and I just don't enjoy watching with the old graphics.
But esports isn't a zero sum game - you can grow esports without taking away from BW. There's more money out there now for pros to earn that couldn't make it in BW, and more sponsorship opportunities. Why is that a farce?
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EPT
