On May 12 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote: intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest:
"If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans."
So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday?
I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough* , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.).
-_-
You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world.
No, he's saying that Tasteless and Artosis say that the ex-BW pros that are winning now in SC2 were "sick good" at BW, but actually those pros weren't very good at all.
They were sick good at Brood War though, just like everyone who was A and better was sick good at Brood War. Team liquid Brood War fans just have some much needed desire to criticize everyone who's not S-Class( and some who are. Poor Fantasy ='[. ) despite the fact that the average skill level amongst said fans is maybe C-.
Started watching KR-BW a long time ago but I think SC2 is more interesting to watch because the game has 1) nicer graphics, 2) english commentary (haha XD), 3) new game and tactics are still being figured out, 4) i'm a huge BoxeR, nada, july, oov fanboi rofl..
!) graphics are everything in a rts game, yep. 2) agree, lol. 3) we still have new tatics in bw (new queens strategies against mech play). Bw is creating new tatics everyday. Yesteray for exemple Bisu used A new pvt oppening that was never used before in TV games. You see, bw is such a complex game that new strategies will keep comming untill we have good players playing the game.
On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote: This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2.
You realize he's not arguing against that AT ALL right? Kind of reflects extra poorly on you after that snide remark bringing his capability of reading into question... He's saying there's no point in making claims you can't back up and that it's just fuel for pointless arguments (in this case, that an S-class BW player would dominate SC2 if they switched over). Did you click on the wrong quote button or something?
Read his post again, he said that there was no argument since BW pros haven't dominated SC2, when that is actually wrong, as the article goes into great detail saying how (bad) BW pros are the ones currently seen as the top SC2 players.
Being better than someone else in one game, does not equal being better than someone in another game. All I keep hearing is assumptions and speculation based on prior BW results, not actual proof.
No, those weren't based on BW results. Those were based on traits observed of the players which can be applied to other RTS. Their mechanics, work ethics, tactics, improvisation, and pure intimidation factors. I understand why you are skeptical because you haven't seen them. These guys are simply not human.
The people who have seen them personally all agree. MC thinks: It's not a question of if they will dominate. It's a question of when. It's not proof but it's the opinion of someone who knows what he is talking about, someone who had seen the S-class players in person.
Is the purpose of this well written, well thought out article to bash sc2?
I think the difference between both games is.. too practice BW is simple, you already know the best BO's against every strategy, there is almost no one player that can make up an original BO that works consistantly.
Sc2 on the other hand is still being figured out, people don't practice their mechanics as much as BW pros do because they're still figuring out the best way to beat certain strategies.
TL;DR BW comes with a set of rules that you must follow. In sc2 you're making up the rules as you learn for now.
Great article btw, except for the whole Flash/Jaedong/Bisu > everything everywhere anywhere
P.S I want to see a good player from BW switch because I think that would force every player to step up their game.
It's exactly the reason why BW is so fun to watch. The most talented RTS players in the world are playing it and showing off their incredible 400+ apm skills.
It's mind boggling the control they display..Amazing micro, amazing macro, amazing multitasking on multiple fronts, innovative/interesting strats, split second decision making...It's just such a beautiful game.
I will continue to watch BW pro games live, they may not have english commentary but the passion and incredible enthusiasm that the korean commentators display is more than enough for me to be content..
On May 12 2011 22:22 gwixter wrote: so ... who are these fine gentlemen mentioned in OP (some Flash, Jeadong, Bisu ...) because I can't find them in SC2 ladder anywhere and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
I'm an SC2 fan, and even I find this post sad.
There's a Starcraft 1, and it has a thriving pro scene in Korea. FLash/Jaedong/Bisu are the big three in it.
Brood War is more of a young man's game (or at least that's the conception in Korea), so as time passes players that are A-class/S-class now will find more and more incentive to switch.
please don't be sad, my post was a little bit exaggerated
of course I know who they are ... just I don't understand how hypothetical skill of these players in game they don't play makes whole scene in that game being a farce .... because afaik current top SC2 players are really best SC2 players atm
Also what's this talk about Heart of the Swarm and players switching over? I feel like i'm missing something obvious: why does HotS mean BW pros will switch to SC2? I've heard this a lot lately. Also the only indications of people switching over are a couple of old JD quotes, and current pros being asked how BW pros would do if they switched? Not a lot to go on, but somehow i'm meant to hold onto this as a light at the end of the tunnel of mediocrity? (well, not even mediocrity, i'm told Nestea and FruitDealer are BAD not mediocre.)
Not really HotS, but free agency when contracts expire. If they're not renewed, or if players aren't happy with the new contracts they may switch is what he's talking about.
On May 12 2011 22:38 Megatronn wrote: Is the purpose of this well written, well thought out article to bash sc2?
I think the difference between both games is.. too practice BW is simple, you already know the best BO's against every strategy, there is almost no one player that can make up an original BO that works consistantly.
Sc2 on the other hand is still being figured out, people don't practice their mechanics as much as BW pros do because they're still figuring out the best way to beat certain strategies.
TL;DR BW comes with a set of rules that you must follow. In sc2 you're making up the rules as you learn for now.
Great article btw, except for the whole Flash/Jaedong/Bisu > everything everywhere anywhere
P.S I want to see a good player from BW switch because I think that would force every player to step up their game.
You are naive to think such a thing..No two bw games are the same and the metagame continues to evolve and change..
Wow. I loved Brood War and loved watching the old pros play. Flash was larger than life! But SC2 is exciting as well. Take a look at Thorzain's run so far. Trashed Fruitdealer, Liquid`Tyler, and MC. Cool stuff!
I don't know about some, but I get sick of hearing about the good ol' days. Its like having a conversation about music with my grandfather. No matter what band I bring up, they are never as good The Beatles. Tool? Nope, White Album was better. NIN? Abbey Road was better.
But when it gets down to it, what is better? And why?
Most of the answer is entertainment value for the fans and rewardability (which is a word I just made up) for the players. I just can't believe that I read such a crap post here on TL. We can say that new music is good without having to say the Beatles are great. Speculating about how great Nirvana would have been if Kurt was here now is about the same as wondering how great Flash will be, because chances are he will never switch.
I don't think that TBLS will be successful in SC2. SC2 mechanic and gameplay doesn't provide enough place to shine with your skills, so there is no way to tell apart good players from very-good. Maybe they will do fine, but domination is impossible in SC2.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
I am still at a loss to what your point actually is...
It seems you are suggesting the best stay the best, always will be the best, regardless of what actual game is being played.
You're bordering on the edge of Hero Worship.
You are saying "Because Player1 is an expert at Game1... he/she is therefore going to be THE expert at Game2."
There is no doubt the Brood War players would be great at Starcraft 2... but saying the current top crop couldn't even compete with Brood War players, is - to be frank - stupid.
If this were true, there could be no Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney. There could only be Maradona and George Best. The reality is, those "old pros" would have a much more difficult time in the current game than the new crop would have in the old game.
Don't believe me? Read John Wooden's books. Here's a guy who was absolutely unstoppable as a player and went on to become the winningest basketball coach in history. He openly admits "Compared to the players of today (Jordan, Kobe, LeBron ,etc), I wouldn't stand a chance. It's a different game now."
I like that you've taken the time to put the article together, collect snazzy looking statistics but the main point is still fluffy and made for wrong reasons.
As for the money flowing to Flash and Jaedong compared to that of FruitDealer, MC, etc... do you have any idea how money actually works, and how it moves? What's worth more to you, $200,000 for playing a rapidly-becoming-outdated game... or the chance to establish yourself as a top player in the new, fastest growing game?
Brood War is not going anywhere. But you can be damn sure the money behind it is going to switch to Starcraft 2 soon enough. And honestly, I'd rather be in NesTea, MC, Idra or MVP's position when that happens.
On May 12 2011 22:42 ParadigmSchism wrote: I don't know about some, but I get sick of hearing about the good ol' days. Its like having a conversation about music with my grandfather. No matter what band I bring up, they are never as good The Beatles. Tool? Nope, White Album was better. NIN? Abbey Road was better.
The Beatles are better than Tool and NIN what is wrong with you
This post scares and excites me in so many ways. I love the current pros to bits, and hope they will continue to do well. I would love even more if the monsters from BW would switch though.
Started watching KR-BW a long time ago but I think SC2 is more interesting to watch because the game has 1) nicer graphics, 2) english commentary (haha XD), 3) new game and tactics are still being figured out, 4) i'm a huge BoxeR, nada, july, oov fanboi rofl..
!) graphics are everything in a rts game, yep. 2) agree, lol. 3) we still have new tatics in bw (new queens strategies against mech play). Bw is creating new tatics everyday. Yesteray for exemple Bisu used A new pvt oppening that was never used before in TV games. You see, bw is such a complex game that new strategies will keep comming untill we have good players playing the game.
1) Thats my PoV, I am a super old skool DotA nerd but I appreciate HoN more due to the graphics and being fresh? I still play both though and enjoy them both though. 3) Ok, you got me there. I don't deny that every game can still create new moments and feelings of awesomesauce from a spectator PoV.
EPT
, IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.).
and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
