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You can't really compare fx. Boxers's BW stats with 628 games to 12 games he played in SC2. And if you say yes, here is why:
BoxeR – 353-275 (56.21%)
BoxeR – 6-6 (50%)
So he played over 52 times as many games of BW. Or said in another way he played 1,9% the number of SC2 games compared to BW games.
Another argument. What would his win % be if he won or lost 20 more games?
BW 20 next games won: (353+20)-275 : 57,56% win rate
BW 20 next games lost: 353-(275+20) : 54,47% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in BW could change his win rate from +1,35% to -1,74%.
SC2 20 next games won: (6+20)-6 : 81,25% win rate
SC2 20 next games lost: 6-(6+20) : 18,75% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in SC2 could change his win rate from +31,25% to -31,25%.
Its quite easy to see the difference in impact. So preparing stats between 600+ games with 12 games hardly gives a realistic view. SC2 is still new, would properly be more fair to compare SC2 to when BW was 1-2 years old.
Last comment I have is, a great player can also be one who adapts to balance changes faster.
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On May 12 2011 21:52 Play wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:42 thesmoosh wrote:On May 12 2011 21:34 zerglingsfolife wrote:On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them. Why don't you read the editorial? It has a section separately for why the legends aren't great. I did. It was just a bunch of rationalization and made up guesses as to why they suck. The only factual evidence was that Nada's win rate had dropped a whole 4% towards the end. Yeah, total slump... NOT. If you were a BW fan then you would know that the greats like nada, july and boxer became more and more painful to watch from 2008 to 2010. In your heart you wanted them to pull out the amazing imulsive innovative play that they so easily did in their prime, and sometimes they did, but they just weren't the same players. They struggled to compete with the new age robotic youngsters, whether it be due to age, multitasking deficit or failing to expand and adapt their game. Some games were downright embarrasing to watch. The Nada we've seen in the last few years is NOT the Nada from his golden years.
I did not follow BW so I am more than willing to take you guys' word for it that these guys were in their decline. It's not hard for me to believe that because tbh, they kinda suck in SC2. July is showing some creativity and has in a way changed the way zergs play, so I see a hint of a spark there.
My point was that the article itself provided no proof of why Flash/JD would somehow be so dominant, or why nestea/mvp are supposedly so bad. Stats from years ago in a different game do not matter much as far as I'm concerned. Citing BW stats for SC2 is like saying a track and field champion would make a good soccer player. Yeah he's more likely to succeed than someone that runs slow, but it does cover the entirety of the situation.
I have no problem accepting that Flash/JD would be amazing at SC2 if they switched. I don't know much about them other than what I've read here but what I've gleaned is that they are a class above others.
What I have a problem with is the part where the OP says there are 300 pro BW players, any of whom could switch and instantly dominate. That just stinks of fanboyism and blind bias. Because if that was really the case, then why haven't they? We all know it's not money because there is a boatload of money in SC2.
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Yeah, I pretty much agree with the above sentiments. You see the BW S-Class players play and you can't really point out flaws when they are at the top of their games. You don't say that they could have split better or positioned better you say they could have done something different with a certain outcome that may or may not have been better than what they decided. When you look at SCII, you can always criticize the players for something simple like army control and overcommitting even players like Idra. They just don't have that sort of perfection in their play.
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For all those who quoted me I apologize, some of you have valid points.
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Hm... I am not convinced. If this is so clear cut, why can MC take games off MVP in SC2. Why are the WC3 players dominating SC2 not called Grubby and Moon?
I don't think it's that simple. Certainly not enough to take anything away from the people at the top of SC2 for being at the top of SC2.
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People are making all these SHITTY analogies of how expertise 1 people claim if they went to expertise 2 they would own. But, clearly they would not. You guys are just making strawmen arguments that are insult to both the readers and your own intelligence.
How about you considering if all the average people from expertise 1 switched to expertise 2 and they raped the scene. Wouldn't it make sense that the pro people from expertise 1 would rape the scene as well? (at least make ur analogy a waste of everyone's time?)
Millions of SC2 players... all 3 GSL winners are SC1 players. GSL S-Code is overloaded (statistically) with SC1 players. HMMMMM LET US USE OUR BRAIN???!?!?!
NAH.
"BUT LOOK AT BADMINTON/KUNG FU/OTHER EXPERISE"
child please.
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United States33592 Posts
whoa, this post is some kinda rallying banner for elitist BW-watching lurkers everywhere :O
*rallies*
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Basically what this article is saying is "WELL, THESE GUYS ARE WINING, BUT THEY SUCK LOL LOOK AT THOSE ON THIS OTHER GAME HERE!"
They are the winners because they are playing SC2 and they are here. BW players are in BW, if new stars are to come into SC2 great, meanwhile the ones who shine here are MC, MVP and NesTea.
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On May 12 2011 22:03 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:59 Callous wrote:
This is a great article.
Idra on stream even stated that "if someone like Stork switched over and played Protoss, he wouldn't lose a single game." That statement is pretty remarkable by itself, and I think it captures your argument quite well. Which would actually just reinforce the point of this (if it happened), since on the BW scene Stork is the "huge talent, no work ethic" guy.
Not really. OSL Finals, FantaSy versus Stork. Stork is viewed by a majority as the better player, easily. What we saw, though, was very, very well-thought-out and executed builds by FantaSy obviously developed specifically for the set and to counter Stork's style. What we saw from Stork almost spoke apathy, the man not showing anything new and sticking to very standard builds. He got wrecked.
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This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
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On May 12 2011 22:08 Waxangel wrote:
whoa, this post is some kinda rallying banner for elitist BW-watching lurkers everywhere :O
*rallies*
Hey, it's okay if a Teamliquid writer does it
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On May 12 2011 22:03 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone went onto a CS site and called the entire CS scene a farce, talked about how he couldn't really enjoy watching CS and talked about how Quake players were so much better that they could just switched over and roll over all the opposition I'm pretty sure the response would not be constructive interest. Well I should have known better than bringing up a comparison. My point is I don't see why anyone should get angry over this, much less even if they don't even know anything about BW. Obviously I see that this is happening I just don't get it. Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:53 Tachion wrote:On May 12 2011 21:51 biskit wrote:On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased. Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with. You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all. Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene. We are pretty happy with our scene thanks. Why the rage then?
Does describing someones opinion as rage, make your point superior and theirs childish. What about his statement makes you assume it is motivated by anger?
If you are happy take it for what it is.
Your apparent need to inform people that the thing they enjoy is not as good as they thought it was is what is frustrating people. Not necessarily the validity of the statement.
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On May 12 2011 22:03 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone went onto a CS site and called the entire CS scene a farce, talked about how he couldn't really enjoy watching CS and talked about how Quake players were so much better that they could just switched over and roll over all the opposition I'm pretty sure the response would not be constructive interest. Well I should have known better than bringing up a comparison. My point is I don't see why anyone should get angry over this, much less even if they don't even know anything about BW. Obviously I see that this is happening I just don't get it. Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:53 Tachion wrote:On May 12 2011 21:51 biskit wrote:On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased. Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with. You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all. Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene. We are pretty happy with our scene thanks. Why the rage then? If you are happy take it for what it is.
Again, i don't think many people get angry. I think they get annoyed by the fact that the post is very well written and formatted but alot of potential is lost due to the way alot of it is presented. As an example quotes about Flash and Jaedong from other pros/coaches to further the point that they are super good. This is done in EVERY sport and it's said about the best guys at the moment. Ultimately it's just a bunch of hype.
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On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2.
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On May 12 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone created a thread like that about BW and SC2 it would be interesting. This article is a mix of statistics and logic AND bias. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time looking at what they write to see if it's as unbiased and credible as possible. Things like "competition is a farse" and "ST training IS bad" are just opinions and not in any way measurable. As i've said before, different people thrive in different training environments. You can't just say "this kind of training regiment is best for BW/SC2" or "This person was bad 3 years ago in BW, so he's just as bad in SC2. But SC2 is easy so he's winning". Maybe a player grew and developed with different kind of training/coaching, maybe the difference between the games did wonders for his playstyle/development. There's just so many variables that are completely ignored by the OP that i find it uninteresting and quite biased.
That's exactly my problem with it, too. Too much is taken for granted. I'm actually a big fan of BW and despite originally being drawn here by SC2 have been really won over by the amazing history of the game and its hugely respectable champions (both old and new). If this article was presented differently I wouldn't have any qualms with it at all. The constant overlooking of important details and unknown factors on top of the not-so-thinly veiled BW elitist attitude really rubbed me the wrong way though. Even if these write-ups are traditionally opinion pieces, it's a front page article essentially snobbing a large portion of the website's community and I just wish more thought and consideration was put behind its presentation.
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Nada, Boxer and July of 2010 were much better than the "Bonjwa" Nada, Boxer and July. The whole bw scene just got that much better. All progamers have perfected their mechanic to a point that no production cycle will ever be missed. The old guys just didn't have the mechanic to keep up with the kids. It's also why it is so hard to take SC2 seriously. It just lacks the professionalism that bw has going.
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On May 12 2011 22:03 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone went onto a CS site and called the entire CS scene a farce, talked about how he couldn't really enjoy watching CS and talked about how Quake players were so much better that they could just switched over and roll over all the opposition I'm pretty sure the response would not be constructive interest. Well I should have known better than bringing up a comparison. My point is I don't see why anyone should get angry over this, much less even if they don't even know anything about BW. Obviously I see that this is happening I just don't get it. Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:53 Tachion wrote:On May 12 2011 21:51 biskit wrote:On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased. Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with. You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all. Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene. We are pretty happy with our scene thanks. Why the rage then? If you are happy take it for what it is.
It's not rage, it's annoyance that time after time BW players go on about how much greener the grass is on their side of the fence.
We don't need to be educated about the state of our scene, we don't need to be taught about all the BW players who didn't switch over, if the OP finds everything accomplished in SC2 so far a complete farce that he can't take seriously then why is he bothering to write up an article about it?
Just let us enjoy our game.
All this article does is drive yet another stake between the BW vets and the SC2 newcomers and the fact that it was put on the front page boggles me.
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Considering the awful conditions that most BW players live under, i doubt the extra skill is worth it.
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I don't think it is fair to say every brood war pro with a similar history as MVP or MC can make it in SC2. Those guys may just have been the raw gems among the grey mass of B-and low A-teamers, that just needed a new game with a level playing field to develop into star players.
It is not like players such as Thorzain or Kas were on the same level as Grubby or Moon in WC3, yet they arguably surpassed them in SC2.
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EPT
