EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 55
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Argus92
Netherlands93 Posts
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zerglingsfolife
United States1694 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:23 syllogism wrote: Further article ideas: Competition in 2001 a farce; Boxer not worthy of being labelled a bonjwa TSL 1-2: a waste of everyone's time Yes, compared to the game now, competition in 2001 was a farce, lol. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:21 Mailing wrote: If this was the case, brood war would of never lost it's popularity. People move on, times change, graphics improve. ?? Broodwar hasn't lost its popularity. It was never popular in the foreign scene to begin with. In Korea SC2 has done nothing except take some of the worse players out, and not many at that. With the new changes coming to the OSL and with the competitiveness of pro BW going up (many players are playing well right now) I'm pretty sure BW is going strong in Korea lol... | ||
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:15 Synwave wrote: It's called editing for emphasis. Ironic that a "Final Edit" would be edited for emphasis in this fashion? I don't think so. If that is the case and you are correct then the failure lies with the author, not with the majority of the reader base...and please dont counter with "but they are just sc2 kids" A number of respected intelligent posters who are well known BW fans have replied regarding the tone of the article. For myself I am a BW fan that became a fan of SC2 also. Yes, if we're talking black or white, then I guess it sways more towards a, "failure," from the author, but I honestly don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, and many others in this thread agree with me -- zatic, just above, for instance. It's a snap decision based on a couple of statements without considering the rest of the content for what it is, and instead reading it with blood covering the eyes, a response already ready based on that one or two lines that provoked such irrationality. I, as much as anyone, want to see SC2 grow. I love SC2 and think it has tons of potential. That doesn't mean I shouldn't pretend everything is perfect. | ||
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Fiel
United States587 Posts
- We're all bad. - The game is not mapped out yet and is still being balanced every month or two. - With constantly changing units there can be no standard strategies. - There's still Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void on the way - THEREFORE: You haven't seen anything yet! He makes this atrocity instead: - We're all bad. - The current players are amateurs from BW - therefore they are amateurs at SC2 - The current players of SC2 do not have the training mindset of Brood War - If brood war players switched to SC2 we would all see the game advance rapidly due to their work ethic and mindset. - THEREFORE: You haven't seen anything yet! So the core principle of the article is based around "Mindset and work ethic affect win rate." But does it really? Jaedong has been in slumps before. So has Bisu. As a matter of fact, Bisu even was forced on a several month vacation and came back in a tour de force. They have the mindset and long practicing regimes but still lose and slump - being knocked out of MSLs and OSLs. I think there's something to the article that the author is missing. I don't think it's just mindset and work ethic - I also think it has to do with the relative strength of other players. As their skills increase (which it still increases in Brood War to this day) that makes legends like God Young Ho stick out even more. | ||
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
If you think Sc2 is more skill-demanding than BW, you are wrong At THIS current time, SC1 is both more strategically complex AND far more mechanically demanding. No one can dispute either of these points right now. Now, in the future, things could change, but from a current standpoint, this article is dead on. It isn't an issue of doubt Seriously some of the posts in this thread are completely retarded. Some guy posted that "flash or jaedong would be good at sc2, but a player like fantasy wouldnt be" WTF? Only a person who has never played BW and/or doesn't know jack about BW could ever make a statement like that. This article is more than "just an opinion," the OP has spent effort to grab statistics from the TOP SC2 players and shown the correlation of their BW statistics in relation to their success. Flash and Jaedong would dominate if they came over to SC2. Sure it might take a couple months for them to get accustomed to the game, but if you disagree with that, then really theres something wrong... | ||
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Sumsi
Germany593 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:18 cactuschewer wrote: I don't understand the point of posts like these, they're extremely disheartening and counter-productive, they make it seem like everyone who watches and plays SC2 is wasting their time because the best of the best in BW could switch over and absolutely smash everyone, they just choose not to because they don't need to. The article proves also why the SC2 scene is far from beeing a professional E-Sport by comparing it to the developed BW scene where things are taken more seriously. Especially in terms of dedication, practice and professionalism. So I wouldn't call it counterproductive. I would say it's encouraging cause it shows how much SC2 can improve from now on. | ||
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
Ideally you find a job you enjoy right? It's many hours of your life! Many people figure this out when they are 40 and they get depressed for all the chances they never took. Only to live "secure". I respect players that can focus so much, but I sincerely hope they love doing it. I find it sad to read if Jaedong really stays in just for the money. I thought he just has a contract up till aug'2012 before he can switch. If you've achieved so much in SC:BW isn't it worth trying to proof to yourself you can do the same in SC2? The idea would get me excitedd. It gets more attention too, so it's much better for his ego. He can help shape the game too! | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote: Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! What exactly was this article supposed to do other then that? On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote: I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it. I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well. I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Why should we care that there are great BW players who haven't switched? Why should we care how SC2 players used to do back in BW? We don't follow BW, we never have. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
On topic: This is not BW>>>>>sc2 rant. I think Intrigue trying to say that right now sc2 is not at its highest peak yet, and it will be better when BW A-teamer switch over or even better, the TaekBangLeeSsang (if they ever switch over). This is more like intrigue saying "BW is dying, sc2 is the future". | ||
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haylmfao
124 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote: Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! Heh. Have you even read that article? It's blatant flamebait. While I agree on many of those points (though definitely not the "lolol there are 300 dudes who could dominate sc2 at will but don't want to for some reason" part), you can't say this article isn't supposed to let BW fans feel superior while making SC2 fans feel like shit and hate BW. So yeah, I now feel a sudden surge of hate for everything BW-related and I'm extremely disappointed that Blizzard failed/chose not to kill it in Korea. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
you know what's a farce? yours and the entire BW community's logic who subscribe to this idea. a farce is believing that Flash is just that good because he's born that way and he just practices hard and has a natural talent, and if he was to come along instead of boxer/oov, didn't have the amazing players to guide him along, didn't have the generations of understanding to come before him, wasn't able to enjoy starcraft from a young age and wasn't cultivated to become good by people who have played the game for years before him, that he would still be just as good. it's not the case. no one in SC2 has those kinds of tools and that level of coaching. everyone in SC2 is still learning the game for themselves. there are still things to understand, still things that aren't figured out. at the same time, the only advantage BW pros have at this point is the years of RTS refinement they've built up which is a silly thing to feel "cheapened" about. i totally agree with an above poster in saying you sound EXACTLY like the old timer boxing fans who just KNOW because their favorite boxers have grown up for generations learning boxing and are more refined that it's not even worth it to watch a sport like MMA that's similar but an infant in its evolution. | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
And this could not be displayed any better then what OP is attempting. An example. FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008 TesteR and FruitDealer left their first team oGs (where they were known as oGsSKS and oGsCool, respectively) only a couple months after beta to "enjoy SC2 as freely as possible." What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL? Let me disect why this is not only manipulative numbers but down right lying. Fruitdealer won the first GSL when the game was hardly figured out, the scene wasnt established and many of the current topnames was hardly present, yet you use it as an example of the current SC2 scene. Given the timeline and pace of developement of the game it would be someone equal to pulling numbers from 2003 to talk about the current state of BW. On top of that, if you look into it closer Fruitdealer wasnt on a relaxed schedule up to his first GSL win. He was one of the most dominant players in the beta and had a lot more practise behind him then a majority of the players in the tournament. FD later made a statement, around GSL 2 or 3, dont remember exactly, that he wasnt practising a whole lot, but up to the point where he won he had comprehensive practise with oGs, he had more practise then his competators and a lot of beta tournament experience. Fruitdealer isnt dominating anymore, and never had for that matter, he had one good run more then 6 months ago and made a name for himself. He is an average RTS player currently playing on a relaxed schedule and struggling to stay in code S, and when he finally drops I doubt he will be back. So why would you even mention him in this context? Because your thread is manipulative to the point I would could call it downright lying. So many random statistics are pulled to make a statement that are ment to offend rather then to prove common sence. Common sence? Yeah I can do that without numbers. Current top50 Broodwar players would after a given amount of practise of SC2 be able to hit the scene and do well. Top10 BW would mingle well with the current SC2 top10, maybe even even dominate it, but you are not taking into account the difference in the game and skills required. The skillsets of MC, nestea and others applies better to SC2 then it did to BW and for a number of BW pros the opposite could be the case, they would be doing better in a figured out game where mechanics plays a much more dominant role in contrast to a different paced game that are still being figured out. So talented RTS players would do well in SC2(yes I am in shock as well) but really, did you have to make a post that is not only made up of goddamn lies to prove a point that anyone with common sence can tell, but did you have to bash the entire SC2 scene while doing so? | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:28 Cedstick wrote: Yes, if we're talking black or white, then I guess it sways more towards a, "failure," from the author, but I honestly don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, and many others in this thread agree with me -- zatic, just above, for instance. It's a snap decision based on a couple of statements without considering the rest of the content for what it is, and instead reading it with blood covering the eyes, a response already ready based on that one or two lines that provoked such irrationality. I, as much as anyone, want to see SC2 grow. I love SC2 and think it has tons of potential. That doesn't mean I shouldn't pretend everything is perfect. Wait did you just accuse me of black and white perspective and follow it up with gems such as "It's a snap decision based on a couple of statements without considering the rest of the content for what it is" and "That doesn't mean I shouldn't pretend everything is perfect." ?? Yeah credibility gone, enjoy your perspective and whatever perspective you think I have it's obvious your just inventing it at this point. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: - The game is not mapped out yet and is still being balanced every month or two. So? On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: - With constantly changing units there can be no standard strategies. This is false. - There's still Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void on the way Again, so? This article deals with the PRESENT, not the future. On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: He makes this atrocity instead: - The current players are amateurs from BW - therefore they are amateurs at SC2 100% true. Right now the SC2 scene is amateurs playing amateurs. On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: - The current players of SC2 do not have the training mindset of Brood War 100% true. Look at Nada, he barely practices and he stomps half of the guys he plays. On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: - If brood war players switched to SC2 we would all see the game advance rapidly due to their work ethic and mindset. I don't recall the article saying that. On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: So the core principle of the article is based around "Mindset and work ethic affect win rate." But does it really? Jaedong has been in slumps before. So has Bisu. As a matter of fact, Bisu even was forced on a several month vacation and came back in a tour de force. They have the mindset and long practicing regimes but still lose and slump - being knocked out of MSLs and OSLs. Bisu and Jaedong have an incredibly focused mindset and practice regime. This is why they're among the top 3 players in the world! What about this is so fucking hard to understand? Yeah, they go into slumps. Players go into slumps for all sorts of reasons, but both Jaedong and Bisu have maintained 65%+ winrates for a majority of their careers. In the current proleague season Bisu is running an 80% (!!) winrate. I don't understand at all how you make the inference that what intrigue is saying suggests that the best practicing players should never lose or never slump. That's obviously what you're saying, and it's beyond stupid. On May 12 2011 20:29 Fiel wrote: I think there's something to the article that the author is missing. I don't think it's just mindset and work ethic - I also think it has to do with the relative strength of other players. As their skills increase (which it still increases in Brood War to this day) that makes legends like God Young Ho stick out even more. Wtf? In SC2 right now, everyone right now is (comparatively) trash. So...what was the point of your post exactly? Keep in mind I am both a player and watcher of SC2. I still find BW more entertaining to watch, but I follow both scenes pretty closely. | ||
zatic
Zurich15359 Posts
On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote: On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. | ||
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urmomsalurker
11 Posts
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Zechs
United Kingdom321 Posts
You're logic simply doesn't add up. The best WC3 players have not not performed as well as some of the lesser players so far, why would BW be the same? Grubby and Lyn - two of the succesful WC3 pros of all time - have done 'okay'. Thorzain and Naniwa - who were only decent, above average players - are about to contest the TSL finals, having beaten top SC2 players on the way. Then look at Moon, the WC3 equivalent of Boxer, struggling to stay in Code A. SC2 is a lot more different to WC3 than it is to BW, but hopefully you can see my point. Being good in one game does not guarantee that you're good in another unless they're practically identical. I'm not saying that Flash would be bad, but to say that him staying a BW player negates all ideas of competition in SC2 is just blatant fanboyism. | ||
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:56 oXoCube wrote: So Basically you're saying that if the best RTS players in the world started playing SC2 fiull time they would be pretty good? Go Figure. Why is this in the featured news? | ||
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Tears.Of.The.Moon
Slovenia715 Posts
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