EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 53
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Ctuchik
Sweden91 Posts
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:31 Synwave wrote: I can see how that might be a construed perspective. However I tend to read editorials similar to a thesis statement and defense which to my eyes is exactly how this article is written. The statement at the start being "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." which is then defended in whichever manner the author chooses. The elephant here is clearly labeled and it is clearly an inflammatory dead horse that has caused a number of threads to be closed. The wording the OP used to get the reaction he wanted was a little strong, I agree, which ended-up leading to emotional responses rather than raising discussion about the issue at hand, but what we see is just that: a slew of emotional responses automatically adjusted to defend SC2, without realizing what it is the OP is trying to get across. It's funny how one or two bolded statements can blind people so much. | ||
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Stiluz
Norway688 Posts
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Aenarion.Velten
United Kingdom2 Posts
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AvengerAzrael
Lebanon20 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:39 Potatisodlaren wrote: Oh Lord reading Reddit hurts me. Seriously not a single answer there deals with the details of the article, only trashing it without seriously addressing anything in the article. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/h9jfo/the_elephant_in_the_room_team_liquid_editorial/ They are talking about a lot of details which are important. For example: + Show Spoiler + The main problem with that argument is that BW pros haven't switched and until that time, you can't say anything definitive. I'm sure these players will definitely crush once they do come over, but until that time mc, nestea, mvp, etc. are still arguably the best players because they consistently show up to championships. + Show Spoiler + The game is still young and perhaps in the future if they do switch, I will be in the front row rooting for them just like anyone else on this board. + Show Spoiler + People used to say this same kind of thing about Mixed Martial Arts. "OMG PRIDE fighters would crush UFC fighters. UFC fighters are minor-league'rs compared to pride fighters LOLOLOL!" The UFC absorbed PRIDE, and the domination never happened. This notion that there are 300 BW players who could come in and just dominate at will is laughable. Like others have said, I'll believe it when I see it. + Show Spoiler + Not really sure what the point of this is. Is it that SC1 pros are better than SC2 pros? Well yeah, SC1 has been around ten times as long and is more popular. Not sure why that's supposed to be a surprise. + Show Spoiler + His argument somewhat defeats itself. If there are so many solid BW pros who could enjoy easy dominance should they switch to SC2, and they are chiefly motivated by economics, why aren't they making the switch? The 10th best BW player in the world would make more money as the 1st best SC2 player, and yet that isn't happening. Given that the economics would put them in a place where their skills are best leveraged, this must be counteracted by a risk, a risk that we are all aware of, that the skills in the one, while very comparable, do not necessarily translate into skills in the other game. Some of the rest of his argument is a tautology too. The best players are playing BW, and because they are best they aren't switching to SC2. Therefore the weaker players move to SC2. Yea, that's true, but it doesn't say anything about the relative skill levels in the new game, or the other sources of players. For instance what about players like losira with no pedigree in BW because they are a younger, new generation. How can we reliably speak to their skill level? + Show Spoiler + You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. Since his switch from T to Z, MorroW has a 55.8% win rate, while EdgE has a 65.22% win rate. Now I've never heard of EdgE, so maybe he's a better player than MorroW, but are you going to look at win% to tell you who the better player is? There is a difference between not finding good information and not finding what you want to read to feed the BW elitism in your head. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. And you go on to prove this using BW statistics? This is not deserving of a TLFE... | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Since when is an article that would get closed instantly if it appeared as thread post, appropriate as frontpage news? Did TL staff really sit around the table and decide this would be an enrichment to the community? Sorry if I'm not impressed by a "the opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff" -disclaimer, if you acknowledge that it's a heavily controversial piece and want to distance yourself from it ... maybe it wasn't fit to be a TL newspost after all? Maybe intrigue should have made a blog to vent his frustrations, just like everybody else? As to not give his writing an air of officiality? I have read it again and again hoping to find some secret meaning or worthy piece of knowledge, but in the end it all came down to: The compettion in SC2 is a farce, BW players are better and will always be, even the best SC2 players are BW rejects or burnt out legends that seek easy money If good BW players switch to Starcaft 2 they will dominate and make current top players look silly, in fact, everyone who watches SC2 is a bit silly., they're naive for watching an inferior game with inferior players. I, with my superior knowledge of RTS, couldn't even entertain myself with SC2 if I tried! Yes, you do sound like a bitter BW fan whose sandcastle got washed away and who now tries to trample newly emerging sculptures. You can't even hide behind the notion of introducing the flood of SC2 fans to Starcraft's fundaments, since you've only focused on downplaying ex-BW players' skills. So seriously, I'm curious, is there any other goal to your article than to ridicule Starcraft 2 and romanticize BW? Or is it really just a troll riding an elephant in the china store? | ||
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Jakalo
Latvia2350 Posts
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:52 CellTech wrote: So if I have a 200k salary job that I'm great at, I'm supposed to quit and get a 20k salary job that revolves solely around commision from WINNING every tournament I enter .. ? People are acting like Any top-20 BW pro would never lose. If this is the case he could make over a million a year in SC2 even without a salary. | ||
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Mista_Masta
Netherlands557 Posts
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Deleted User 45971
533 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:55 AvengerAzrael wrote: They are talking about a lot of details which are important. For example: + Show Spoiler + The main problem with that argument is that BW pros haven't switched and until that time, you can't say anything definitive. I'm sure these players will definitely crush once they do come over, but until that time mc, nestea, mvp, etc. are still arguably the best players because they consistently show up to championships. + Show Spoiler + The game is still young and perhaps in the future if they do switch, I will be in the front row rooting for them just like anyone else on this board. + Show Spoiler + People used to say this same kind of thing about Mixed Martial Arts. "OMG PRIDE fighters would crush UFC fighters. UFC fighters are minor-league'rs compared to pride fighters LOLOLOL!" The UFC absorbed PRIDE, and the domination never happened. This notion that there are 300 BW players who could come in and just dominate at will is laughable. Like others have said, I'll believe it when I see it. + Show Spoiler + Not really sure what the point of this is. Is it that SC1 pros are better than SC2 pros? Well yeah, SC1 has been around ten times as long and is more popular. Not sure why that's supposed to be a surprise. + Show Spoiler + His argument somewhat defeats itself. If there are so many solid BW pros who could enjoy easy dominance should they switch to SC2, and they are chiefly motivated by economics, why aren't they making the switch? The 10th best BW player in the world would make more money as the 1st best SC2 player, and yet that isn't happening. Given that the economics would put them in a place where their skills are best leveraged, this must be counteracted by a risk, a risk that we are all aware of, that the skills in the one, while very comparable, do not necessarily translate into skills in the other game. Some of the rest of his argument is a tautology too. The best players are playing BW, and because they are best they aren't switching to SC2. Therefore the weaker players move to SC2. Yea, that's true, but it doesn't say anything about the relative skill levels in the new game, or the other sources of players. For instance what about players like losira with no pedigree in BW because they are a younger, new generation. How can we reliably speak to their skill level? + Show Spoiler + You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. Since his switch from T to Z, MorroW has a 55.8% win rate, while EdgE has a 65.22% win rate. Now I've never heard of EdgE, so maybe he's a better player than MorroW, but are you going to look at win% to tell you who the better player is? There is a difference between not finding good information and not finding what you want to read to feed the BW elitism in your head. None of those can be considered serious answers and are only one paragraph at most addressing their feelings left over from what seems a quick glace at the article. I like how you didn't even read through all your own quotes to see if they are wrong. The last one is flat out ridiculous and has been pointed out by others in this thread and on Reddit already. I apparently didn't know I had BW elitism in my head, thanks for letting me know that I don't regularly watch and enjoy SC2 streams. | ||
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ArnaudF
France993 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:54 Cedstick wrote: The wording the OP used to get the reaction he wanted was a little strong, I agree, which ended-up leading to emotional responses rather than raising discussion about the issue at hand, but what we see is just that: a slew of emotional responses automatically adjusted to defend SC2, without realizing what it is the OP is trying to get across. It's funny how one or two bolded statements can blind people so much. It's just not one or two bolded statements. Alot of the article is very skewed, the wording is very strong (farce, bad etc) and conclusions are drawn based of opinions and not facts in many cases, as in traning regiment and using quotes from other pros about Flash and Jaedong. Using those quotes is no argument at all as you can see people hyping athletes in every sport. Fedor got hyped up and many, many professional fighters said he was the best on the planet. Now he's lost the last two fights and he's not looking hot at all anymore. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Obviously if Flash and Jaedong were to switch they would be top players, but they are extremely talented individuals AND hard-workers, they are going to be super good at anything they choose to do in life. However if someone like, say, Fantasy switched, I am not convinced at all that he would be that good. | ||
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:56 Mailing wrote: People are acting like Any top-20 BW pro would never lose. If this is the case he could make over a million a year in SC2 even without a salary. No, the OP said A-class players would be top-tier. It's argued that S-class BW players -- of which there are about half a dozen -- would rarely lose. | ||
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onlinerobbe
Germany547 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:56 Jakalo wrote: This whole discussion is irrelephant haha :D nice | ||
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:56 Jakalo wrote: This whole discussion is irrelephant If tl had one of those thumbs up deals that other sites have I would use that here. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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zerglingsfolife
United States1694 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:56 Saechiis wrote: As a fan of both BW and SC2, I got seriously annoyed by reading this "article". In fact, it made me question TL's ability to distinguish "news" and "heavily coloured opinion piece bordering flamebait". Since when is an article that would get closed instantly if it appeared as thread post, appropriate as frontpage news? Did TL staff really sit around the table and decide this would be an enrichment to the community? Sorry if I'm not impressed by a "the opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff" -disclaimer, if you acknowledge that it's a heavily controversial piece and want to distance yourself from it ... maybe it wasn't fit to be a TL newspost after all? Maybe intrigue should have made a blog to vent his frustrations, just like everybody else? As to not give his writing an air of officiality? I have read it again and again hoping to find some secret meaning or worthy piece of knowledge, but in the end it all came down to: The compettion in SC2 is a farce, BW players are better and will always be, even the best SC2 players are BW rejects or burnt out legends that seek easy money If good BW players switch to Starcaft 2 they will dominate and make current top players look silly, in fact, everyone who watches SC2 is a bit silly., they're naive for watching an inferior game with inferior players. Yes, you do sound like a bitter BW fan whose sandcastle got washed away and who now tries to trample newly emerging sculptures. You can't even hide behind the notion of introducing the flood of SC2 fans to Starcraft's fundaments, since you've only focused on downplaying ex-BW players' skills. So seriously, I'm curious, is there any other goal to your article than to ridicule Starcraft 2 and romanticize BW? Why are you using italics if it's not a direct quote? | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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