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rkiga
United States44 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:25 Kiante wrote:
since when were prelims counted games? you changed the stats by adding in all the games they played against B teamers in prelims? lol. good job einstein
On May 12 2011 19:27 zerglingsfolife wrote:
1. What do you rely on to tell if someone is good? If a player wins 90% of the time and another wins 40% you can't say the first player is better?
2. The stats are correct, they count only the standard leagues.
OK I fully admit adding in KeSPA Dream League stats doesn't make my stats right, so I'll correct them.
edit: derp
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On May 12 2011 19:31 Lorizean wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:19 rkiga wrote:Top 2 reasons why this article is 100% bullshit: 1. You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. 2. EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG. The author and those who left the 900+ comments here failed to realize that TLPD's "Main Info" tab is bugged and is always wrong (you have to click through to the "Record & Games" tab to see real stats). Please go see for yourself that all the stats are wrong. I left a more detailed response on reddit if you care. This is actually so funny. It shows that OP simply didn't research well enough. Or maybe he just wanted the stats to match what he's saying? Also, what somebody else noted about the misquotings of MVP etc. It doesn't matter whether or not what OP is saying is true, a Final Edit on Teamliquid should have some quality standards and they should include quoting the right Statistics. Also, why the derogatory Language towards SC2? Calling the competition a "Farce" is downright insulting to all the pro-players currently playing SC2.
Wth?!!!
EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THE ARTICLE IS CORRECT!!!
It doesn't count dream-league, playing against B-teamers in prelims, or unofficial games!
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Australia7069 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:37 rkiga wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:25 Kiante wrote:
since when were prelims counted games? you changed the stats by adding in all the games they played against B teamers in prelims? lol. good job einstein Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:27 zerglingsfolife wrote:
1. What do you rely on to tell if someone is good? If a player wins 90% of the time and another wins 40% you can't say the first player is better?
2. The stats are correct, they count only the standard leagues. OK I fully admit adding in KeSPA Dream League stats doesn't make my stats right, so I'll correct them. But the article's SC2 stats are still wrong. How the hell does the article say that July is 6-9 in SC2? That makes no sense when you look at his record.
those are broodwar stats. did you even click the links? wow. You win the "uninformed but post inflammatory shit" award
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On May 12 2011 19:26 itiswhatitis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:20 BlueFlames wrote:On May 12 2011 18:49 itiswhatitis wrote:On May 12 2011 18:46 BlueFlames wrote:
Nice read. A few days ago i started to think like that more and more. But for me the S-class bw players switching would not change a thing. Its like you said, their workethics are far better than those we see in the sc2 pros today, for the most part at least. But they would just do the same thing that July or Nada do. Chill and earn some easy money.
Korean bw pro teams dont have their bad reputations for nothing when it comes to treating their players really strictly. For me the situation would only change, if teams like that form in sc2, or the old bw teams open up sc2 sections.
Right now the most sc2 players enjoy their freedoms and a nearly normal life, while earning some decent money. No, we want all the pros we watch to be gaming robots with no social life! That is how pro gaming should be, these guys don't deserve time off to enjoy spending the money they make or live semi-normal lives, they should have to be strapped to their computer 12+ hours a day practicing the same things over and over again to shave fractions of seconds off their movements! Well its their choice to enter a team. And its their choice to give up all those things. Its like with any other sport you see out there. How many hours do you think someone like Leonel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo were training since they were little kids? You want to be greate, you have to train a shitton. And if you are great you earn the big money. And as a spectator ... yes i want them to train like effing robots and i dont give a **** about their social life. The worst thing about SC2 teams right now is that they dont force their players to be greate. I have an other elephant in the room just for you. Why do you think a certail pro team is in a slump for the last few month, even though they have everything they would need to be on the top of the foreign scene, and sucessfull in Korea too? Is it because their players just arent good enough, or is it because ppl make jokes about their players about who actually practices the least or about who can drink the most and pick up more girls? Dont get me wrong. I love the foreign scene and players of said team, but i dont expect them to stay even in code B of GSL when really talented players backed by a real pro team start to enter the picture in the future. Korean bw pro-team methods might be over the top, but there is enough evidence that they are the most successful. Well, that's where we differ. I like to hear about players' real lives, and know that they are a normal human like myself that does something besides train every waking hour. Maybe I'm weird like that. Maybe I also care about the players I like and wish good things for them in their lives besides just victories in a game. I guess I'm just not hardcore enough.
Believe me you dont have to feed bad for Flash or Jaedong. Just like i said, i like the foreigner scene and all the stories, but professional gaming is no different than professional sports. If you want to be the best and earn the most money and presige, you have to make sacrifices. And its not just about seeing someone win. Its about seeing someone be the best at what he does, about seeing someone showing off something a mere mortal could never do. Its about seeing someone devote his life to something and watching the result. Thats why ppl like watching professionals like Micheal Jordan, Tiger Woods, Flash and Jaedong.
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On May 12 2011 19:37 rkiga wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:25 Kiante wrote:
since when were prelims counted games? you changed the stats by adding in all the games they played against B teamers in prelims? lol. good job einstein Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:27 zerglingsfolife wrote:
1. What do you rely on to tell if someone is good? If a player wins 90% of the time and another wins 40% you can't say the first player is better?
2. The stats are correct, they count only the standard leagues. OK I fully admit adding in KeSPA Dream League stats doesn't make my stats right, so I'll correct them. But the article's SC2 stats are still wrong. How the hell does the article say that July is 6-9 in SC2? That makes no sense when you look at his record.
These are bw stats, dude. I think you should chill out a bit.
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wow people who are getting huffy about 'bad' bw players playing well/bad in sc2 is missing the point. this article is about "you think you've seen all sc2 has to offer? you haven't seen ANYTHING yet!"
it will be a very, very sad/exciting day whenever one of TBLS switch over.
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Everyone who has watched SCBW for more than a couple of games knows that Flash and Jaedong are definitely outliers. I completely agree that their dominance if they switch over is a question of when, and not if.
I'm not sure if you can interpret Geumchi's quote on Startale's practice scheme as flat out bad, because it just sounds like the practice schedule is more independant. They don't force you to practice this and that, but instead, you look for your own schedule & practice patterns. Is this different? Yes. Is this bad? Don't think so.
Personally, I really hope more A-team quality players do switch over from SCBW when the expansion hits SC2. I still think the progamer skill level in GSL could rise up by quite a lot.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:43 Sprouter wrote:
wow people who are getting huffy about 'bad' bw players playing well/bad in sc2 is missing the point. this article is about "you think you've seen all sc2 has to offer? you haven't seen ANYTHING yet!"
it will be a very, very sad/exciting day whenever one of TBLS switch over.
Exactly what I meant.
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While I agree that Flash, JD etc would dominate in sc2, I don't really see a reason to judge the current sc2 players based on their previous sc1 achievements. Common, it has been a year now, they are sc2 players, not sc1 players anymore, no point discussing that imo.
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On May 12 2011 19:34 blackone wrote:
Thank you for this article, I really enjoyed reading it. It's sad though that while reading it, you already know that it's going to be followed by myriads of pages with people who react like spoiled kids because somebody insulted something they like. Most of them apparently didn't even read more than a few sentences.
I read through it and there's some great points. People get annoyed because with those points is alot of biased blended in. I'd love to read something like this with a more positive outlook on both BW and SC2. Like how BW can keep their S-grade players but maybe SC2 is more interesting for the up and comers or the ones who don't get a proper chance in BW. The article is way to polarized and in favor of BW and how BW progamers work and way to critical of SC2. Especially the training.
After reading the part about GuemChi's experience with ST it obvious that the bias is there. GuemChi didn't appreciate the open style of training ST uses, intrigue decides that this means ST training is bad.
Any professional in any sport might feel more or less comfortable with a training regimen. I was a junior pro in swimming up to the age of 16. I quit due to the way our training was planned, it was very strict and boring to me. There's loads of different aproaches to training and how to become better. For example, the best long distance female skier (Marit Bjoergen) has had MORE success after lowering her time spent training, she was unbeatable all this winter.
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Artosis on his stream: this article is retarded and the guy who wrote it actually knows nothing about e-sports...
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emm.... TL;DR ?
User was temp banned for this post.
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This will be VERY interesting on SOTG next week.
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Great read. I think the thrust of it is pretty on point.
I really hope nobody good switches over. That would be brutal. Let the SC2 scene do its thing, just don't fuck with my BW!
EDIT: I don't think it's biased at all. It's listing statistics and making generalizations based on them. The strong BW pros haven't switched, which is undeniable. They're faster, more dedicated, and practice more, which is undeniable. The only thing that isn't empirical fact is that top BW pros would get to the top of SC2 swiftly, and I feel that anyone who doesn't see the logic in that is ignoring something.
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This is something I've always had in the back of my mind.
I for one am excited to see the time when these players take SC2 to the next level.
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So the best current players BW players are still sticking with BW. Ok. I could see how this trivializes competition if SC2 wasn't an entirely separate game. That's not the case though. So it boils down to the assumption that Flash and Jaedong would be pretty damn good if they started playing SC2. That's not ruining anything for me. If you really want to go that route there's other people out there with the intelligence/work ethic/motivation to dominate BW, SC2, or whatever, but given their abilities, life probably steered them in completely different directions. What would Magnus Carlsen be doing with this game if got his hands on it and applied the same dedication to it as he has done with chess? This doesn't diminish anything for me.
As for the BW vs SC2 arguements that seem to be dominating the thread: first of all... ugh. SC2 has a much easier initial learning curve. That's it. WC3 was even less demanding than SC2 mechanically. It didn't make the game a coin flipping snooze fest. Moon and company were doing things with their 300 APM in that game, especially in the later years, that would make your mind boggle.
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On May 12 2011 19:39 BlueFlames wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:26 itiswhatitis wrote:On May 12 2011 19:20 BlueFlames wrote:On May 12 2011 18:49 itiswhatitis wrote:On May 12 2011 18:46 BlueFlames wrote:
Nice read. A few days ago i started to think like that more and more. But for me the S-class bw players switching would not change a thing. Its like you said, their workethics are far better than those we see in the sc2 pros today, for the most part at least. But they would just do the same thing that July or Nada do. Chill and earn some easy money.
Korean bw pro teams dont have their bad reputations for nothing when it comes to treating their players really strictly. For me the situation would only change, if teams like that form in sc2, or the old bw teams open up sc2 sections.
Right now the most sc2 players enjoy their freedoms and a nearly normal life, while earning some decent money. No, we want all the pros we watch to be gaming robots with no social life! That is how pro gaming should be, these guys don't deserve time off to enjoy spending the money they make or live semi-normal lives, they should have to be strapped to their computer 12+ hours a day practicing the same things over and over again to shave fractions of seconds off their movements! Well its their choice to enter a team. And its their choice to give up all those things. Its like with any other sport you see out there. How many hours do you think someone like Leonel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo were training since they were little kids? You want to be greate, you have to train a shitton. And if you are great you earn the big money. And as a spectator ... yes i want them to train like effing robots and i dont give a **** about their social life. The worst thing about SC2 teams right now is that they dont force their players to be greate. I have an other elephant in the room just for you. Why do you think a certail pro team is in a slump for the last few month, even though they have everything they would need to be on the top of the foreign scene, and sucessfull in Korea too? Is it because their players just arent good enough, or is it because ppl make jokes about their players about who actually practices the least or about who can drink the most and pick up more girls? Dont get me wrong. I love the foreign scene and players of said team, but i dont expect them to stay even in code B of GSL when really talented players backed by a real pro team start to enter the picture in the future. Korean bw pro-team methods might be over the top, but there is enough evidence that they are the most successful. Well, that's where we differ. I like to hear about players' real lives, and know that they are a normal human like myself that does something besides train every waking hour. Maybe I'm weird like that. Maybe I also care about the players I like and wish good things for them in their lives besides just victories in a game. I guess I'm just not hardcore enough. Believe me you dont have to feed bad for Flash or Jaedong. Just like i said, i like the foreigner scene and all the stories, but professional gaming is no different than professional sports. If you want to be the best and earn the most money and presige, you have to make sacrifices. And its not just about seeing someone win. Its about seeing someone be the best at what he does, about seeing someone showing off something a mere mortal could never do. Its about seeing someone devote his life to something and watching the result. Thats why ppl like watching professionals like Micheal Jordan, Tiger Woods, Flash and Jaedong.
Flash and Jaedong aren't the norm you know, they're the exception. Perhaps with the SC2 approach we won't see players burned out in their early 20's but rather have a healthy career up to their 30's, I sure would prefer that. This may very well result in better players and epic careers in the long run. That players start to decline isn't due to some age reason, it's because a human being can only stand the BW lifestyle and practice regime for so long.
Other than that I'd say the OP is just one long drawn-out way of saying that the best BW players are still playing BW. Really, what else is new?
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On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do)
So if I have a 200k salary job that I'm great at, I'm supposed to quit and get a 20k salary job that revolves solely around commision from WINNING every tournament I enter .. ?
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EPT
