|
On May 12 2011 19:08 OTIX wrote:
How can it be considered an "Elephant in the room" when it's already been pointed out by roughly 100 quadrillion trolls in Sc2 threads? Everyone already know that the best BW players are still in BW, and it's not like anyone here can do anything about it. So what is the purpose of the OP? If it's not to educate and it's not an attempt to improve the situation then what's left? The only purpose of the OP is to put down Sc2 fans and give a smug sense of superiority to BW fans.
It is the very definition of a troll post.
The purpose is to put things in perspective and write a well structured and argumented article that may have a better effect than random posts in random threads from other people claiming similar things (and I agree many of them are saying it in an offensive way).
If an article is featured in the Final Edits on TL, it has enough credibility for everyone to consider.
This struggle to point out that this article is hating, trolling, biased, and has no good arguments or evidence just because a lot of people don't like what they read and REFUSE to accept it is really painful to watch.
|
On May 12 2011 19:08 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room. This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments.
Just argued about this article quite thoroughly on IRC, and I have to say that a lot of people are mis-interpreting it, the, "Elephant in the Room." The point is the practice and mindsets going in to it every day -- why BW pros are better than SC2 pros, and why they will dominate when they come over. If current pros don't step it up, they're going to become irrelevant.
|
The article is written just to put things in perspective - we might be impressed by the current SC2 pros, but they were in fact bad players in SC:BW so we haven't seen it all yet -- we've yet to see the good BW pros play SC2.
|
rkiga
United States44 Posts
You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats.
edit: deleted the rest because i'm an idiot 
|
But Talin, what is to accept here? What is to be argued about? If you see a car speeding up to 200, but is at still 60kmph, and you see the other car already going at 200, do you argue that the previous one is slower? Or do you doubt that it can reach 200kmph? Or do you laugh at the yet not full-speeded car? Or the driver?
|
On May 12 2011 19:16 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:08 OTIX wrote:
How can it be considered an "Elephant in the room" when it's already been pointed out by roughly 100 quadrillion trolls in Sc2 threads? Everyone already know that the best BW players are still in BW, and it's not like anyone here can do anything about it. So what is the purpose of the OP? If it's not to educate and it's not an attempt to improve the situation then what's left? The only purpose of the OP is to put down Sc2 fans and give a smug sense of superiority to BW fans.
It is the very definition of a troll post. The purpose is to put things in perspective and write a well structured and argumented article that may have a better effect than random posts in random threads from other people claiming similar things (and I agree many of them are saying it in an offensive way). If an article is featured in the Final Edits on TL, it has enough credibility for everyone to consider. This struggle to point out that this article is hating, trolling, biased, and has no good arguments or evidence just because a lot of people don't like what they read and REFUSE to accept it is really painful to watch.
What exactly is this intended effect? To disrespect the current players?
|
Ok, Sc2 requires less mechanics but with 2 expansions, the game has the potential to be strategically far more complex then BW. BW pros are good but it is all about how fast you can click on stuff to make stuff while controlling your stuff. Blizzard made the right choice to head the game to the "outplay", not "outclick your opponent" direction.
|
On May 12 2011 18:49 itiswhatitis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 18:46 BlueFlames wrote:
Nice read. A few days ago i started to think like that more and more. But for me the S-class bw players switching would not change a thing. Its like you said, their workethics are far better than those we see in the sc2 pros today, for the most part at least. But they would just do the same thing that July or Nada do. Chill and earn some easy money.
Korean bw pro teams dont have their bad reputations for nothing when it comes to treating their players really strictly. For me the situation would only change, if teams like that form in sc2, or the old bw teams open up sc2 sections.
Right now the most sc2 players enjoy their freedoms and a nearly normal life, while earning some decent money. No, we want all the pros we watch to be gaming robots with no social life! That is how pro gaming should be, these guys don't deserve time off to enjoy spending the money they make or live semi-normal lives, they should have to be strapped to their computer 12+ hours a day practicing the same things over and over again to shave fractions of seconds off their movements!
Well its their choice to enter a team. And its their choice to give up all those things. Its like with any other sport you see out there. How many hours do you think someone like Leonel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo were training since they were little kids? You want to be greate, you have to train a shitton. And if you are great you earn the big money.
And as a spectator ... yes i want them to train like effing robots and i dont give a **** about their social life. The worst thing about SC2 teams right now is that they dont force their players to be greate. I have an other elephant in the room just for you. Why do you think a certail pro team is in a slump for the last few month, even though they have everything they would need to be on the top of the foreign scene, and sucessfull in Korea too? Is it because their players just arent good enough, or is it because ppl make jokes about their players about who actually practices the least or about who can drink the most and pick up more girls? Dont get me wrong. I love the foreign scene and players of said team, but i dont expect them to stay even in code B of GSL when really talented players backed by a real pro team start to enter the picture in the future.
Korean bw pro-team methods might be over the top, but there is enough evidence that they are the most successful.
|
Great article. Well written all though I knew almost everything before 
And the last thing or the point of the article that 200-300 amatuers bw players can take over at any point.....I think we are starting to see that in Code A this season....where alot of Code A players can take the whole tournament....imo
Also mechanics in SC2 are easier, so I think lesser talented bw players will be able to compete with good bw players....I think Ive seen alot of "nonames" take out former average bw players
|
It's a bit unfortunate that the tone in the OP makes it sound like the majority of sc2 players aren't aware of the fact that the best bw players havn't switched over, or that they will rape everyone, when that's not really the case
|
Totally agree. The real thing hasn't come yet!
|
Vatican City State334 Posts
I can't agree with the article, I don't see SC2 being dominated if Flash and Jaedong were to play. They'd be better than the current crop of players simply by their decisions but they wouldn't stand out compared to any player which can already take games off them in BW.
A fundamental difference which stops this domination is that once you get to a certain level you can copy and execute any strategy from any player in SC2 quite easily. In BW other pro players can see exactly what Flash and Jaedong are doing but they still won't be able to execute it without their mechanics. There are also many abilities in SC2 such as fungal growth, concussive shell, forcefields, etc. which will nullify their micro advantage.
|
On May 12 2011 19:18 Senx wrote:
The article is written just to put things in perspective - we might be impressed by the current SC2 pros, but they were in fact bad players in SC:BW so we haven't seen it all yet -- we've yet to see the good BW pros play SC2.
The "perspective" they are putting it into is "All your favorite sc2 players suck and will be crushed when the real players get here, whenever that is, if ever, so all current sc2 accomplishments mean nothing"
I'd rather keep my old perspective, which is sc2 is a great new game that is growing and changing all the time, and it's very exciting to watch it as it begins to evolve toward its eventual form. Sorry I don't want to watch a game that looks like it's on NES so I can see guys pull off builds they practiced 1000 times at 400 apm. I would rather watch the future evolve than the past stagnate.
|
On May 12 2011 19:19 rkiga wrote:Top 2 reasons why this article is 100% bullshit: 1. You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. 2. EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG. The author and those who left the 900+ comments here failed to realize that TLPD's "Main Info" tab is bugged and is always wrong (you have to click through to the "Record & Games" tab to see real stats). Please go see for yourself that all the stats are wrong. I left a more detailed response on reddit if you care.
nice catch
wonder whether OP will change his post or not based on this new find
and isnt the real reason most BW Pro dont switch to SC2 because Kespa dont allowed them ?
Have nothing to do with BW having more money iirc
|
On May 12 2011 19:18 Cedstick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:08 Synwave wrote:On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room. This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments. Just argued about this quite thoroughly on IRC, and I have to say that a lot of people are mis-interpreting this. The point is the practice and mindsets going in to it every day -- why BW pros are better than SC2 pros, and why they will dominate when they come over. If current pros don't step it up, they're going to become irrelevant.
Let's be honest.
Anyone can see that the entire purpose of OPs post is to show off how much cred, glamour and skill BW has in comparison to the current SC2, and how SC2 has gotten more attention than it deserves.
These are the typical kind of feelings fans of the original product have, and I have seen these types of rants from "oldtimers" in every single competitive sequel I've played.
The author knew what kind of reactions he was going to get, as he states in the introduction. Of course he knew that the main perception would be BW pooping over SC2.
|
Australia7069 Posts
On May 12 2011 19:19 rkiga wrote:Top 2 reasons why this article is 100% bullshit: 1. You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. 2. EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG. The author and those who left the 900+ comments here failed to realize that TLPD's "Main Info" tab is bugged and is always wrong (you have to click through to the "Record & Games" tab to see real stats). Please go see for yourself that all the stats are wrong. I left a more detailed response on reddit if you care.
since when were prelims counted games? you changed the stats by adding in all the games they played against B teamers in prelims? lol. good job einstein
|
Sorry but all I could think after reading the article was "O Rly?".
Added nothing new to this old discussion and was kind of pointlss imo.
|
On May 12 2011 19:20 BlueFlames wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 18:49 itiswhatitis wrote:On May 12 2011 18:46 BlueFlames wrote:
Nice read. A few days ago i started to think like that more and more. But for me the S-class bw players switching would not change a thing. Its like you said, their workethics are far better than those we see in the sc2 pros today, for the most part at least. But they would just do the same thing that July or Nada do. Chill and earn some easy money.
Korean bw pro teams dont have their bad reputations for nothing when it comes to treating their players really strictly. For me the situation would only change, if teams like that form in sc2, or the old bw teams open up sc2 sections.
Right now the most sc2 players enjoy their freedoms and a nearly normal life, while earning some decent money. No, we want all the pros we watch to be gaming robots with no social life! That is how pro gaming should be, these guys don't deserve time off to enjoy spending the money they make or live semi-normal lives, they should have to be strapped to their computer 12+ hours a day practicing the same things over and over again to shave fractions of seconds off their movements! Well its their choice to enter a team. And its their choice to give up all those things. Its like with any other sport you see out there. How many hours do you think someone like Leonel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo were training since they were little kids? You want to be greate, you have to train a shitton. And if you are great you earn the big money. And as a spectator ... yes i want them to train like effing robots and i dont give a **** about their social life. The worst thing about SC2 teams right now is that they dont force their players to be greate. I have an other elephant in the room just for you. Why do you think a certail pro team is in a slump for the last few month, even though they have everything they would need to be on the top of the foreign scene, and sucessfull in Korea too? Is it because their players just arent good enough, or is it because ppl make jokes about their players about who actually practices the least or about who can drink the most and pick up more girls? Dont get me wrong. I love the foreign scene and players of said team, but i dont expect them to stay even in code B of GSL when really talented players backed by a real pro team start to enter the picture in the future. Korean bw pro-team methods might be over the top, but there is enough evidence that they are the most successful.
Well, that's where we differ. I like to hear about players' real lives, and know that they are a normal human like myself that does something besides train every waking hour. Maybe I'm weird like that. Maybe I also care about the players I like and wish good things for them in their lives besides just victories in a game. I guess I'm just not hardcore enough.
|
On May 12 2011 19:19 rkiga wrote:Top 2 reasons why this article is 100% bullshit: 1. You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. 2. EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG. The author and those who left the 900+ comments here failed to realize that TLPD's "Main Info" tab is bugged and is always wrong (you have to click through to the "Record & Games" tab to see real stats). Please go see for yourself that all the stats are wrong. I left a more detailed response on reddit if you care.
Prelim games and Dream League (you probably don't know what that is go look it up) games are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to a BW players career, those are left out.
Nice try though,
|
On May 12 2011 19:19 rkiga wrote:Top 2 reasons why this article is 100% bullshit: 1. You can't rely on stats to tell you who is good at a game and who isn't, especially not win percentage stats. 2. EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG. The author and those who left the 900+ comments here failed to realize that TLPD's "Main Info" tab is bugged and is always wrong (you have to click through to the "Record & Games" tab to see real stats). Please go see for yourself that all the stats are wrong. I left a more detailed response on reddit if you care.
1. What do you rely on to tell if someone is good? If a player wins 90% of the time and another wins 40% you can't say the first player is better?
2. The stats are correct, they count only the standard leagues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
