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On May 12 2011 18:58 Senx wrote:
I think heyoka is sort of overrestimating how much you can "outplay" your opponent in SC2. Mechanics are not the main differential anymore, strategy and tactics are -- which lowers still skill cap of the game.
So to make the statement that JD and Flash would dominate SC2 just feels very ignorant to what skillset is actually required to play SC2 at the highest level.
Idra even stated that he barely needs to practice the game anymore - he doesn't need to improve his mechanics -- they are good enough. What he does is he thinks about the game, since its mostly about strategy and tactics.
Sure, maybe JD or Flash will come up with some amazingly unique strategy, but then again how long until the counter if figured out? I just don't see anyone dominating SC2. The main skillsets required for the game does not lend itself to having dominating players.
Except that at the very top level, pros don't practice simply for mechanics. Flash has stated in an interview that oftentimes he just practices in his head simply because it's more efficient than actually playing out the games. If that isn't strategy, I don't know what is.
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On May 12 2011 19:03 sc4k wrote:
ITT: a great deal of people who don't consider BW 'their' game and spend their time trying to rationalise completely awful arguments so the game they want, SC2, can be considered 'legit' in terms of competition.
OP was excellent and 100% right.
As much as I want to be offended by your very dumb gerenalization, I cannot even be upset. You are simply wrong. And you will be wrong until you realize that the two games are not in the same stages of their lifecycles.
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On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Thank you! I am a bit tired and out of it and you put my thoughts out there much better than I have been able to. Also I really agree about the article being mistitled. I don't believe this subject has ever been an elephant in the room, it has brought on many flame wars, closed threads, and bans... then all of a sudden it's featured on the front page as "The elephant in the room"?
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On May 12 2011 18:38 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 18:32 itiswhatitis wrote:On May 12 2011 18:29 Boonbag wrote:On May 12 2011 18:28 Gustaf wrote:
I never watched bw, im a gold-leagueplayer and i enjoy watching sc2. These legends and gods u talk about, why should i care about them?
You sound like a greek hero blaspheming to the higher invisible gods. They could smite you. But he has a point... why should sc2 fans care about BW pros unless they do actually come to sc2? We like watching sc2, and will continue to like it as it evolves and the skill levels go higher and higher. Like a few other people said, I'd love for all the bw pros to switch over, it would be awesome to have a lot more talented players to watch. But, until they do... I don't really care. I don't watch BW. I watch sc2. oh I agree they shouldn't care. Truth is that the whole situation of SC2 is kind of annoying. Older people shaping up the scene with tournaments etc all do this from the love they grew from watching Korean pro scene and want above all to replicate it in other countries. But while the scene is somewhat taking off, while there is money going into it, the competition that arises isn't nearly close to what it should be with that much money in it. And that's somewhat depressing. Because the "esports" that (older people) want to make happen, shows to not be of the same raw quality / material. This is a MAJOR frustration.
Just because some people don't enjoy the current tournament level of play doesn't mean a huge amount of people do. I was at Dreamhack Invitational and people were going crazy in some of the games. 90k livestream viewers isn't something to laugh at either.
The level of play is being refined. Just look at the first two seasons of the GSL. One basing, stalkers in front of zealots and horrible play overall. The game has developed a TON since then, and i think it wont stop for quite some time.
I'm not frustrated at all, i find SC2 to be incredibly fun. A feeling i share with a lot of pros and casuals.
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Best thing I've ever read on Team Liquid. Thank you! 
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Could have saved yourself from writing the whole article when you added "The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers," that line to the body. I read through this twice and can't disagree more with it. Most everyone knows that SC2 is easier to play, and you don't have to be one of those 'super soldiers' to be at the top, you have to be smart. It's not longer about who can control the mouse and keyboard the best, moving rally points and making units, control groups, etc. It's about executing strategy and outplaying your opponent mentally, and being a strategy game it's a welcome change for me. I respect the BW pros, they are excellent gamers, but to write a whole article writing SC2 players off because Flash and Jaedong could switch over and trash them is a bit silly.
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great article, i enjoyed the reading, but don't forget Stork who's a consistent baller since many years (our silver surfer) 
TBLS ftw
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Isn't it teamliquids best interest to keep SC2 in a positive light? Why are they exposing the facts like this to say that SC2 isn't as competitive as SC1
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Great article. Looks like SC2 will get more interesting as these pros from BW move across and shake up the scene. Having them trickle in each season should keep everyone on their toes.
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Good read, it's definitely an issue sc 2 fans have to deal with. You could even have been way harsher on the sc2 scene.
But i cant help but wonder what the reaction would be if you wrote the article about bw is dead out of korea/sc2 is the future.
In the end i don't think it contributes much to compare the 2 scenes, I would rather be able to enjoy both for what they are
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On May 12 2011 17:21 legaton wrote:
Words of a true oldtimer.
I believe a Broodwar fan will always have some trouble with SC2 "good" players. You didn't mention the foreign scene, but it is almost unbelievable to see ex pro-ams rocking a scene when we knew they were pretty bad. It's funny at the same time because you recognize their game style even after the switch. As a terran, Idra was a macro-focused player, with strong mechanics and strong work-ethics. At the same time, he was predictable and had little game sense, losing constantly to unorthodox build orders. He also complained a lot about imbalance. Artosis was a passive terran player, using the strong defensive abilities of his race, but usually losing as he never attacked. Artosis is still bad, but what about Idra? Today, he is the best foreign Zerg, even if he has stated that he trains a whole less and than him using all-ins is just a way to benefit from the volatility factor of SC2. He thinks as a pro, that's for sure. But what does it says when a B-teamer with less training beat all the "better" SC2 players? It means the scene sucks.
I had wrote a thread, just some days ago i think, about how bad pro-gamers were. I completely agree with Intrigue. People says they are different games. Problem is they are recruiting from the same talent pool: RTS games. And fool you not, on the biggest gaming nations, SC2 is a minor game. In Korea, Broodwar and WC3 reign supreme for RTS games. In China, both of those games are far more important than SC2. Even internationally, League of Legends (LOL) gives SC2 a run for his money. Today, SC2 scene is just a little speculative bubble. OF course, that's a huge chance. A bubble is better than no interest at all, but this happy times should be used to built strong infrastructures (aka real offices for Team Liquid per example) instead of hazardous huge investments (NASL per example... even if i haven't followed it enough to know if it was a success or a failure) that gould fall short in little time.
Only read till here at the moment, but i really liked this post
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On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room.
This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments.
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How can it be considered an "Elephant in the room" when it's already been pointed out by roughly 100 quadrillion trolls in Sc2 threads? Everyone already know that the best BW players are still in BW, and it's not like anyone here can do anything about it. So what is the purpose of the OP? If it's not to educate and it's not an attempt to improve the situation then what's left? The only purpose of the OP is to put down Sc2 fans and give a smug sense of superiority to BW fans.
It is the very definition of a troll post.
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To anyone citing IdrA with his comment, watch his stream and you see a lot of mechanical failure. He is passive with his units, especially Mutas and often fails to execute flanks well (efficiently, he usually wins because of superior macro) and he has poor Infestor control.
It might be easy for someone like Jaedong to do all that but IdrA is nowhere near it.
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On May 12 2011 19:03 sc4k wrote:
ITT: a great deal of people who don't consider BW 'their' game and spend their time trying to rationalise completely awful arguments so the game they want, SC2, can be considered 'legit' in terms of competition.
OP was excellent and 100% right.
ITT: Nostalgic people with little enthusiasm for SC2, try to arrogantly downplay the performances so far, by comparing SC2 to a platform which has had 12 years to accumulate credibility.
SC2 is a better game, and a more vibrant game. SC2 is in it's infancy, and has the future in front of it - as opposed to Brood War. That's just the way it is. That Korea has a nostalgic relationship with the original, and we can interpolate that to somehow make the "infant" SC2 look bad, is only useful if you are a bitter old person with entitlement issues.
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Couldn't agree more with the OP. I'm still waiting patiently to see what happens when a real "Code S" caliber player takes on SC2. It's gonna be so fucking sick.
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On May 12 2011 19:03 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 18:58 Senx wrote:
I think heyoka is sort of overrestimating how much you can "outplay" your opponent in SC2. Mechanics are not the main differential anymore, strategy and tactics are -- which lowers still skill cap of the game.
So to make the statement that JD and Flash would dominate SC2 just feels very ignorant to what skillset is actually required to play SC2 at the highest level.
Idra even stated that he barely needs to practice the game anymore - he doesn't need to improve his mechanics -- they are good enough. What he does is he thinks about the game, since its mostly about strategy and tactics.
Sure, maybe JD or Flash will come up with some amazingly unique strategy, but then again how long until the counter if figured out? I just don't see anyone dominating SC2. The main skillsets required for the game does not lend itself to having dominating players.
Except that at the very top level, pros don't practice simply for mechanics. Flash has stated in an interview that oftentimes he just practices in his head simply because it's more efficient than actually playing out the games. If that isn't strategy, I don't know what is.
I don't see how Flash will dominate using just strategy or tactics as his main way of defeating an opponent.A SC2 game is just so fragile and can be won or lost in a split second with how fast battles are over and the lack of defenders advantage. So I'm just curious how he will dominate SC2?
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Great read! I long for the day that the current God's of BW switch over.
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On May 12 2011 19:08 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room. This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments.
But who is he trying to blame here? SC2 fans? BW champs for not switching?
It seems like the spite is pointed at BLIZZARD for not making the game close enough to brood war.
The "standards" may be lower in SC2, but they could be argued to be too fucking high in BW.
When a foreigner sees GSL players play, especially idra and jinro and huk (even if they may be low level compared to BW champs) it gives people the impression that if they practice hard and long enough they could be at that competitive level.
When is the last time someone looked at Flash and said "Boy, I am going to dedicate the next few years so I can play as well as him"? (non korean)
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EPT
