The Elephant in the Room - Page 49

On May 12 2011 18:58 Senx wrote:
I think heyoka is sort of overrestimating how much you can "outplay" your opponent in SC2. Mechanics are not the main differential anymore, strategy and tactics are -- which lowers still skill cap of the game.

So to make the statement that JD and Flash would dominate SC2 just feels very ignorant to what skillset is actually required to play SC2 at the highest level.

Idra even stated that he barely needs to practice the game anymore - he doesn't need to improve his mechanics -- they are good enough. What he does is he thinks about the game, since its mostly about strategy and tactics.

Sure, maybe JD or Flash will come up with some amazingly unique strategy, but then again how long until the counter if figured out? I just don't see anyone dominating SC2. The main skillsets required for the game does not lend itself to having dominating players.

On May 12 2011 19:03 sc4k wrote:
ITT: a great deal of people who don't consider BW 'their' game and spend their time trying to rationalise completely awful arguments so the game they want, SC2, can be considered 'legit' in terms of competition.

OP was excellent and 100% right.

On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?

"The Elephant in the Room"

What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL

EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."

The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.

The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.

If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.

On May 12 2011 18:38 Boonbag wrote:



oh I agree they shouldn't care. Truth is that the whole situation of SC2 is kind of annoying. Older people shaping up the scene with tournaments etc all do this from the love they grew from watching Korean pro scene and want above all to replicate it in other countries. But while the scene is somewhat taking off, while there is money going into it, the competition that arises isn't nearly close to what it should be with that much money in it.

And that's somewhat depressing. Because the "esports" that (older people) want to make happen, shows to not be of the same raw quality / material.

This is a MAJOR frustration.

On May 12 2011 17:21 legaton wrote:
Words of a true oldtimer.

I believe a Broodwar fan will always have some trouble with SC2 "good" players. You didn't mention the foreign scene, but it is almost unbelievable to see ex pro-ams rocking a scene when we knew they were pretty bad. It's funny at the same time because you recognize their game style even after the switch. As a terran, Idra was a macro-focused player, with strong mechanics and strong work-ethics. At the same time, he was predictable and had little game sense, losing constantly to unorthodox build orders. He also complained a lot about imbalance. Artosis was a passive terran player, using the strong defensive abilities of his race, but usually losing as he never attacked. Artosis is still bad, but what about Idra? Today, he is the best foreign Zerg, even if he has stated that he trains a whole less and than him using all-ins is just a way to benefit from the volatility factor of SC2. He thinks as a pro, that's for sure. But what does it says when a B-teamer with less training beat all the "better" SC2 players? It means the scene sucks.

I had wrote a thread, just some days ago i think, about how bad pro-gamers were. I completely agree with Intrigue. People says they are different games. Problem is they are recruiting from the same talent pool: RTS games. And fool you not, on the biggest gaming nations, SC2 is a minor game. In Korea, Broodwar and WC3 reign supreme for RTS games. In China, both of those games are far more important than SC2. Even internationally, League of Legends (LOL) gives SC2 a run for his money. Today, SC2 scene is just a little speculative bubble. OF course, that's a huge chance. A bubble is better than no interest at all, but this happy times should be used to built strong infrastructures (aka real offices for Team Liquid per example) instead of hazardous huge investments (NASL per example... even if i haven't followed it enough to know if it was a success or a failure) that gould fall short in little time.

On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?

"The Elephant in the Room"

What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL

EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."

The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.

The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.

If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.

On May 12 2011 19:03 sc4k wrote:
ITT: a great deal of people who don't consider BW 'their' game and spend their time trying to rationalise completely awful arguments so the game they want, SC2, can be considered 'legit' in terms of competition.

OP was excellent and 100% right.

On May 12 2011 19:03 Musou wrote:

Except that at the very top level, pros don't practice simply for mechanics. Flash has stated in an interview that oftentimes he just practices in his head simply because it's more efficient than actually playing out the games. If that isn't strategy, I don't know what is.

On May 12 2011 19:08 Synwave wrote:


Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room.

This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments.