EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 48
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Agh
United States1024 Posts
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itiswhatitis
United States136 Posts
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DetrA
United States148 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:45 corumjhaelen wrote: This is false, strategy and decision making are the core differentiation between brood war pros. There is much less strategy in a SC2 game. Do people even watch pro games the strategy's in sc2 look like early broodwar. Where does this sc2 is more strategic come from bw has more of everything including strategy. | ||
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azr
Norway144 Posts
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bmml
United Kingdom962 Posts
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RainDog
Norway5 Posts
I do not doubt that former RTS-experience will help a great deal when you pick up a new game as for instance Starcraft 2. Also, I do not doubt that great BW players easily could, and probably would be great Starcraft 2 - players. However, making an argument that competition is dull because the best players havent switched yet, and if they indeed do switch they will easily own all competition is not only extremely Hypotethical, but seeing the results from the current SC2 scene logically flawed. For instance, the players with the most successfull bw-careers (heading up to the release of sc2) RainBoW and Ace havent actually done very well in SC2. RainbOw had one good GSL season and has since not only been struggling in GSL, he has probably been the worst performer for many seasons in a row. Ace had a IEM victory in a period of the game where Zergs were struggling hard with Protoss, he has had very little success since that victory however. If you look outside of Korea the argument seems even more flawed. Actually many of the best perfomers in SC2 outside the korean scene are former Warcraft III players and players with only slight bw experience. Following the logic of your argument Nony, Idra, Incontrol and other ex-bw players would be owning every tourney they enter, but thats been far from the case. Even Sen havent had any major tourney wins, despite only having to fight other average ex-bw players or former wc3 players. My main problem with your argument is that you argue that "if you are x good in BW you will be X good in Starcraft 2". As a result of this you would have to say that even the average bw-players who have switched too SCII will win every tourney etc. Well, tourneys like TSL and MLG have proven that as a flawed argument. You could stretch this argument further and say "well they lost against the best of former warcraft III pros". Actually, this is not the case. Neither Lyn, Grubby or Moon have (Moon with one tourney exlution) has managed to live up to their former wc3 greatness, while Naniwa and Thorzain is owning up former bw pros in the TSL. And i would further argue that neither of these two were among the best of the best warcraft III players, no doubt they were good, but not the cream of the crop. Hence i find the argument that f.ex Naniwa will be easily rolled if one of the good bw players switch is just a hypothetical claim by a bw-fanboy which can be as easily dismissed as the rather poor evidence you provide to prove your "case". As a final statement: It might be the case that if one of the top of the top Brood War players switch they will become dominant on the scene, but to say that it is the case without a doubt and then go on bashing on the existing players, their practice regimes and just blatantly say "well they WILL own everyone else, no matter what" is as dumb and hypothetical of an argument as believing that Michael Jordan would be the greatest baseball player ever had he picked up the game before he picked up basketball. Its pure hypotethical, it is biased, damaging to the current pool of gamers who struggle and try their hardest on being the best they can be in this game and it is in a being, in lack of a better way to put it, being "full of shit". Anyways, if you think its dull, watch BW instead. | ||
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Dectilon
Sweden50 Posts
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Oldern
Hungary21 Posts
But: the reality is that just like when you make a new garden, you start with the proper soil and the proper seeds. Gaming communities work like a wild garden, because you cannot have control over which kind of seeds there will be in your (Blizzard's) soil - but my point is that these players are all humans, with the ability to improve, to fight their limits and choose how much they want to practice. SlayerS practice sessions of 35-40 games might be laughable compared to the 100 of Flash /day, but the truth is: in THAT environment (BW), he needed that to get to where he is now. If Flash would come into the SC2 scene with that mindset, he would probably dominate for a period of time. BUT, and here comes the really big but: he would also improve the scene's skill level simply because there would be replays available to his opponents at worst, and to everyone at best, where people could examine where and how to improve. People will be hard pushed to practice more, practice more efficiently. What I am saying is this: there is a different kind of environments. It is simply pointless to compare them, just as you do not compare a 10 year old tree to a sapling. That state of the game's life is anything but laughable. Simply because these are the players right now who set the starting ground for the competitive scene. Flash and Jaedong are not players who decide a one year old game's state or competition. They are the result of a decade's impovements, refinements, iterations over iterations of how the StarCraft 1 should be played. They are not driving forces, they are results. There is a difference there. SC2's competitive scene does not result gamers like that - yet. If they would artificially migrate to SC2, the field would grow a LOT harder - and the result would be a lot of disappointed pros and a lot of NEW pros with the sudden inspiration to become better - and then, a new breed of pro RTS gamers would emerge. Would the BW players migration fasten this process? Definitely. But will it happen anyway? Yes. So at the end it all comes down to preferences. If you are only interested in the refined, the old wine, the maximum of the maximum in a versus game, continue enjoying BW. I for one am more interested in the possibilites, the undiscovered territory, the "what if..." that comes with a young game like that. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:50 Talin wrote: Actually, Boxer was at his prime when the game was already 3 years old (2001). That may be young compared to Brood War's lifespan, but on the other hand SC2 is only 1 year old. So it's pretty safe to say that SC2 hasn't even reached its own "Boxer stage" yet. You can't compare development years directly for BW and SC2. SC2 has had the advantage of developing from BW. SC2 builds on all the experience provided by BW. I'd say the first year of SC2 is like the first 4 or 5 years of BW in terms of its development pace, since SC2 didn't have to go through a micro revolution like Boxer provided, followed by the macro revolution that oov started. It's somewhat similar to the advancement of science and technology. There have been more technological developments in the past 100 years than the previous 1000 years combined, but most of that is because as we increase our knowledge, we are able to innovate faster. Anyone attempting to say SC2 is only in its infancy is simply deluding themselves. It's been able to build on the previous generation's knowledge. If BW had never existed, then maybe it could be compared directly like that, but since it did, you can't do that. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:49 Kipsate wrote: And this what the Starcraft 2 people want you to acknowledge, if you argue with the same shallow depth, nothing is going to come out of it and the 'discussions''(for what its worth) will consist out of calling each other fanboys or elitist. I think people are just being way to defensive. I am a SC2 person. But I didn't get offended by this article at all. Its true. That makes some BW people not enjoy SC2, knowing that there is a similar game out there being played at a higher level. Like I said in another post, its like comparing the NBA to the Euroleague. Everyone knows the NBA is the better product. Its where the best talent it. And if top NBA players went to the Euroleague, they would dominate basketball even more. The NBA and Euroleague don't have identical games. They are played differently and have different rules, but in the end, they require the same skill set to be played. Just like BW and SC2 require the same skill set to be played. The NBA and BW just require a higher level of that skill set. | ||
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DetrA
United States148 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:48 SadStarcraft wrote: uhhh? i don't know where you got the impression that the general idea among people was that the more successful players of sc2 were also successful and/or skilled at brood war. you seem pretty convinced though. Do you know what successful means. Do me a favor and report back to me what the winners of the GSL did before they played sc2. I'll go ahead and wait. | ||
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neoenigma
United States243 Posts
I can't really get into SC2 like I could BW. The games, on average, are a lot more boring. Fights aren't nearly as interesting. Engagements are over so fast. The games look more like deathball compositions smashing into each other with the winner coming out on top. I actually don't know how well Flash would do in SC2. The lower skill cap means that anyone can take games off people. All that being said, I'm really surprised (and I suppose excited) that SC2 is doing so well as an E-sport. Hopefully it stays that way, and the game gets some updates that make it more interesting to watch. | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:56 DetrA wrote: Do you know what successful means. Do me a favor and report back to me what the winners of the GSL did before they played sc2. I'll go ahead and wait. he'd have to read the final edit first because that was covered in it... | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
So to make the statement that JD and Flash would dominate SC2 just feels very ignorant to what skillset is actually required to play SC2 at the highest level. Idra even stated that he barely needs to practice the game anymore - he doesn't need to improve his mechanics -- they are good enough. What he does is he thinks about the game, since its mostly about strategy and tactics. Sure, maybe JD or Flash will come up with some amazingly unique strategy, but then again how long until the counter if figured out? I just don't see anyone dominating SC2. The main skillsets required for the game does not lend itself to having dominating players. | ||
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Arolis
United States496 Posts
Among these 3 games there are tons of similarities. Mechanics and skills you learned from one game can be used in the others but there are enough differences that it turned a good player, even a great player, into one of the greatest. Similarly the man to beat in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Justin Wong, hasn't posted the most impressive Street Fighter 4 results. If there was ever a bonjwa for fighting games, Justin Wong would be it for Marvel vs. Capcom 2. The mechanics learned from that game can be used in Street Fighter 4, as well. But there are enough differences in gameplay that it took one of the greatest in MvC2 and made him just another top tier player. My point is that I think the doom and gloom is still a bit premature. While it's true there are a lot of similarities between Brood War and SC2, there are enough differences that the good or great can become greater in the transition (like MC, Nestea and Fruitdealer) and the great or greatest to become lesser. Let us also not forget the group of SC2 players that never played Brood War but may be tomorrow's champion. They may not be very good now in relative terms, but enough dedication may make them players who curbstomp all former Brood War and WC3 players in the future. | ||
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icclown
Denmark270 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:54 RainDog wrote: Anyways, if you think its dull, watch BW instead. Read the article before commenting... He said the exact opposite... | ||
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partysnatcher
156 Posts
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. An acknowledged scientific way (psychology) of ensuring maximum effort in a competition, would be to offer bucketloads of insentive (money) to competitors. That is what has been done. That Flash and Jaedong haven't switched over is most probably a risk based evaluation on their part - would I stay skilled after a transition to SC2? Will SC2 live long and prosper? How is the balance for my race, and how stable will that balance be? In other words, we have seen the maximum level of competitiveness that a brand new RTS game can offer. The people who are the best at SC2, are the best that money-based insentives can buy. There is nothing else to say about this. To say that "SC2 competition has been a farce" is a big joke. You are judging SC2 of today based on what SC2 will be in the future. There's nothing to gain from that. It's just destructive, and to be honest, stands alone as pure nostalgia wanking. It would be similarly destructive and pointless to go back in time and compare the original BW players to the BW players of today. | ||
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SadStarcraft
Mexico56 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:56 DetrA wrote: Do you know what successful means. Do me a favor and report back to me what the winners of the GSL did before they played sc2. I'll go ahead and wait. obviously you don't understand what i was saying, try harder. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
"The Elephant in the Room" What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed." The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting. The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all. If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
OP was excellent and 100% right. | ||
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