EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 46
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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Gustaf
Sweden20 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:29 Boonbag wrote: You sound like a greek hero blaspheming to the higher invisible gods. They could smite you. Haha yea i read too much fantasy x) | ||
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:32 SpaceToaster wrote: Very good read, makes me excited for the future when more BW pros switch (after SC2 picks up steam and the balance levels out)! On May 12 2011 18:32 KryptoStorm wrote: As someone pretty new into the SC scene (Basically briefly played and watched a shit-ton of Sc2) I found this article interesting, makes me really want to see players like 'Flash' and 'Bisu' and 'JaeDong' play, I try watching BW but it's hard for someone to even understand what's going on for a Sc2 only player. I'm glad at least some people get the point of this article. | ||
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Hemera
Denmark15 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:14 shell wrote: Don't like the article, it's pointless imo. I'm not even going into the "it's a diferent game", you just seem bitter then people actually care about SC2 and not your beloved BW.. but you can still watch your gods of gaming play.. instead of actually watching SC2 you can spend your time better and follow BW because those are the best gamers the world has ever seen.. I can't stand this conversation... you are comparing a game that has 10 years of continuous development with a new game and comparing a scene with more then a decade with a scene with not even a year... why and what for? The old BW guys in this site are so bitter about SC2 doing well.. but i can't understant why BW is still strong in korea, just keep following OSL, MSL and proleague and let us noobs(Because SC2 is a lame game that doesn't require any skill) live with sc2.. Your article is well written but i don't like the content and i think it's pointless Word. Oh, and fanboyism is not an argument so this: but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ... is not really legit is it. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:32 itiswhatitis wrote: But he has a point... why should sc2 fans care about BW pros unless they do actually come to sc2? We like watching sc2, and will continue to like it as it evolves and the skill levels go higher and higher. Like a few other people said, I'd love for all the bw pros to switch over, it would be awesome to have a lot more talented players to watch. But, until they do... I don't really care. I don't watch BW. I watch sc2. oh I agree they shouldn't care. Truth is that the whole situation of SC2 is kind of annoying. Older people shaping up the scene with tournaments etc all do this from the love they grew from watching Korean pro scene and want above all to replicate it in other countries. But while the scene is somewhat taking off, while there is money going into it, the competition that arises isn't nearly close to what it should be with that much money in it. And that's somewhat depressing. Because the "esports" that (older people) want to make happen, shows to not be of the same raw quality / material. This is a MAJOR frustration. | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
This is just like that time when Messi switched from Football to Handegg and totally dominated the Superbowl. Before that the Superbowl was a farce. | ||
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growlizing
Norway122 Posts
But does any of this really matter? Did you think the same of the foreign BW scene? | ||
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itiswhatitis
United States136 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:37 valaki wrote: I'm glad at least some people get the point of this article. A lot of people are missing the point because of poorly chosen words that slander all current sc2 players, instead of simply making us hopeful for the time when bw pros will come and shake things up. That is the problem people are having, and all the bw elitists don't seem to get that. I already got warned for a post where I made this valid point, because it is my OPINION that this article should not have been featured because of its elitist dismissal of the achievements of current sc2 pros. I stand by my opinion that it was totally un called for to word it the way it was worded, and it did nothing but incite flame wars. | ||
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Lann555
Netherlands5173 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:32 KryptoStorm wrote: As someone pretty new into the SC scene (Basically briefly played and watched a shit-ton of Sc2) I found this article interesting, makes me really want to see players like 'Flash' and 'Bisu' and 'JaeDong' play, I try watching BW but it's hard for someone to even understand what's going on for a Sc2 only player. You can try some English casters. www.youtube.com/cholerasc is one of the best BW casters imho. He quit casting last year, but there are a ton of games in his archives. Just search for the player you want to see and you will have plenty of games www.youtube.com/nukethestars has basically every OSL (the biggest tournament) match played in the last 3 years with good commentary. Plenty of Flash/Jaedong/Stork/Bisu games there  | ||
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Qiang1446
United States92 Posts
in SC2 it is a lot harder to 'outplay' your opponent that in was in BW... micro is easier, macro is easier ... everything about the game is easier... in BW you can simply win by just being "faster" than your opponent, its much harder to do that in SC2 since it's a lot more noob friendly... the players that did /and are doing well in SC2 may have had the mind/strategy to be very good at BW, but not the speed, and in sc2, its all about strategy. i'm not saying jd and flash wouldn't do well, but im saying the competition would be a lot closer than a lot of you guys expect. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:39 BeyondCtrL wrote: OP is right. Current players suck and all GSL trophies and money prizes should automatically be given to Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu (just kidding Flash only ofc). I mean if Nestea wins GSL May they should just invite Jaedong (Flash) to come and take the trophy, money, and a foursome with that K-Pop band. Obviously its super obvious that Jaedong (Flash) is better at SC 2 than Nestea is, so why don't we give all the stuff to him? Heck just by even showing up Jaedong's (Flash's) aura of magnificence +100 boss will give the GSL some legitimac. Every build order and meta-game evolution should be attributed to his holiness, and not sub-human bottom feeders like MC or Nestea. This is just like that time when Messi switched from Football to Handegg and totally dominated the Superbowl. Yes because football requires the same skills as american football. Come on now. While SCBW and sc2 are two different games, they require the same skill set. They are both RTS games. | ||
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Arimaki
22 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:39 BeyondCtrL wrote: OP is right. Current players suck and all GSL trophies and money prizes should automatically be given to Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu (just kidding Flash only ofc). I mean if Nestea wins GSL May they should just invite Jaedong (Flash) to come and take the trophy, money, and a foursome with that K-Pop band. Obviously its super obvious that Jaedong (Flash) is better at SC 2 than Nestea is, so why don't we give all the stuff to him? Heck just by even showing up Jaedong's (Flash's) aura of magnificence +100 boss will give the GSL some legitimac. Every build order and meta-game evolution should be attributed to his holiness, and not sub-human bottom feeders like MC or Nestea. This is just like that time when Messi switched from Football to Handegg and totally dominated the Superbowl. Well done, sir. Sarcasm is a beautiful thing. :D | ||
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d.herpers
Netherlands5 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:57 mikyaJ wrote: To use an analogy: Imagine some mogul starts a new Football league (we'll call it the WSL) in opposition to the already existing league... the ISL. Lacking playing time or real success, a lot of the "bench-warmers" or guys past their prime (read bad players) join this new league for a change of pace, or a new opportunity to be a star. The good players that stayed behind in the ISL did so because they are stable just continue on playing in their league. What the OP is saying is a "farce" is that winning the new WSL does not matter at all, because the competition is a joke compared to the ISL. As in, if any good ISL player decided to switch and shatter the universe, they would dominate the WSL and that (in the opinion of the OP) invalidates the league as a lesser being. Now, obviously the WSL represents SC2, and the ISL, BW. God you're a freaking idiot! It is a different game! Your analogy would be "Imagine some mogul starts a new Tennis league (we'll call it the WSL) in opposition to the already existing league... the ISL. Lacking playing time or real success, a lot of the "bench-warmers" or guys past their prime (read bad players) join this new league for a change of pace, or a new opportunity to be a star" It's not the same game, so you cant tell for sure if BW stars would beat the current SCII pros. Thats the same thing as going "Messi is the best soccer player in the world, so if he switches to tennis he would beat everyone" Of course my example is crap as well since soccer and tennis arent as close as BW and SCII, but the fact remains, it's a completely different game. | ||
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PanoRaMa
United States5070 Posts
Right behind the tribal colors FE by HT imo! I also answered a similar question on Quora months ago: http://www.quora.com/StarCraft-II/Will-the-top-StarCraft-II-players-soon-be-former-top-StarCraft-Broodwar-players/answer/Kevin-Ko-1 For what is basically my take on the whole situation. Though I do agree Flash/JD would bonjwa the hell out of SC2 for like decades | ||
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Everhate
United States640 Posts
Boxer was at his best when the game was young, and he was developing the strats that would end up leading to where things are now (many, many years down the line). His prime came in the days that strategy was comparatively more important than mechanics. Of course, as time went on, and the strategies became more and more 'known' and 'standard' the mechanics were what separated the ability to use them effectively. We are still in the developmental stages of sc2, which can lead to a state of flux in regard to skill of the GSL winners. 5 years from now, are we going to be talking about Fruitdealer, Nestea, MC, etc as the best in the game? In all likelihood, no. Much like Boxer eventually faded in terms of competitive edge (though was still able to take games from people much 'better' than him at times), we will likely remember these as the guys who won 'before the game was anything like it is now.' I can definitely support the idea that the top BW pros (even those below the rank of the ungodly amazing) will be able to compete, and perhaps dominate, if/when they decide to switch over, assuming they put in the same work as they did/do in BW, and that those of equal 'talent' are unwilling/unable to do the same. As strategies become more and more refined, those mechanics they have developed, and will continue to develop, will be what separates the top-end. The mostly likely choice for the highly mechanically-developed would, of course, be BW pros. A lot of this has me going back-and-forth on points in my mind. While I can support all that you say in the OP, I tend to try to look at things from the perspective of where things will be in a few years, which can be difficult to project. Thanks for writings this all up, if nothing else it gave me more to consider! | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
I consider myself mainly a SC2 player and recently, a SC2 fan. I've been an avid follower of Korean BW for like 4 years, but I barely played the game (I was horrible and never took the time to improve), and even on TL I don't have a single post in the BW section yet (I still read it somewhat regularly though). I could never get into BW community, so I pretty much only admired it from afar. On the other hand, I play SC2, I feel like I can name literally every known SC2 pro or semi pro gamer, I know their personalities, I'm currently a bigger fan of Liquid` than I am of SKT1, and I want SC2 to succeed as much as the next guy. But that doesn't mean I'm going to cling to "my game" and defend it irrationally against any justified negative comments. The best of Starcraft 2 pro gamers aren't good - it's not just that they weren't good at BW, they aren't good in SC2 either. They just happen to be better than everyone else currently. If you've EVER seen a top competitive game played at the highest competitive levels (could be BW, Counter-Strike, whatever), you could see a true beauty in the gameplay, you could see people who have a deep understanding of the game they play and have developed insane skills that are far beyond the reach of an ordinary gamer. All I see in SC2 is players fumbling around in the dark, showing glimpses of good RTS play one game, and looking completely ridiculous the next game. Nobody has good micro, nobody demonstrates good multitasking, and even with all the automated macro aids lack of smooth macro at the highest level of play is just painful to watch at times. Argument that these skills are no longer "needed" and that SC2 is somehow mostly a strategic game is wrong - these are fundamental skills to have and in most games one can point out exactly where better mechanics would have helped the losing player win easily. And it's okay, really. Because SC2 is a baby game taking baby steps still. Don't let all the exposure and amount of 6 digit prize money tournaments fool you. Sponsors and organizers can throw millions of dollars into it, but that won't make it grow (much) faster. It will still take a few years before the real SC2 stars emerge and before we see the true stellar level of gameplay. Finally, building this artificial wallbetween SC2 and BW by pretending that BW is something relatively irrelevant and that SC2 is a "completely different game" (bullshit btw) is just a confrontational and overall horribly wrong attitude to have. There are so many people here who act like SC2 is their nation or, worse, a religion. It's just silly. | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:38 Hemera wrote: Word. Oh, and fanboyism is not an argument so this: ... is not really legit is it. It's not fanboyism. The distribution of pro-BW skill dramatically shifted to the right in last five+ years, and Jaedong/Flash still came out on top. Jaedong is 21 and Flash turns 19 this year (Western ages). | ||
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KryptoStorm
England377 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:35 laguu wrote: There's a TON of brood war content on gomtv.net casted by tasteless. Thats a good place to start. Yeah I know but I mean, I struggle to watch it because I can BARELY tell what things are and what is happening. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:40 jmbthirteen wrote: Yes because football requires the same skills as american football. Come on now. While SCBW and sc2 are two different games, they require the same skill set. They are both RTS games. True and not true, while they are both games of the same genre, alot of things are different. As of now SC2 is more based upon strategy and decision making and unit composition. In SCBW there is more mechanics, micro and the aforementioned that Starcraft has. What the OP describes is that while the games are different, the MINDSET that certain players have have not come to the SC2 scene YET, so we still have a long way to go, with perhaps revolutionary play as people devolop the SCBW practice MINDSET. Look beyond the game people. | ||
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MassArbiterFTW
Australia52 Posts
Someone who played brood war has an obvious advantage in transferable skills over someone who never played RTS at all, if the two were to start playing and learning competitive sc2 at the same time. Veteran BW professionals have developed those skills to a very high level, which would give them an advantage in sc2 when they figure out how to apply them properly in sc2 context. I'm sure a pro on the level of say Savior would destroy the entire sc2 scene. | ||
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