EPTPerhaps if they transfer with all their coaches, training partners or even entire teams. Then I see the likeliness that they would totally dominate. But a single player, unless it's really Jaedong or Flash, I don't think a single BW pro would dominate that much. But I would be happy to be proven wrong.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 45
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Arimaki
22 Posts
Perhaps if they transfer with all their coaches, training partners or even entire teams. Then I see the likeliness that they would totally dominate. But a single player, unless it's really Jaedong or Flash, I don't think a single BW pro would dominate that much. But I would be happy to be proven wrong. | ||
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Krimancer
Sweden150 Posts
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Gustaf
Sweden20 Posts
I never watched bw, im a gold-leagueplayer and i enjoy watching sc2. These legends and gods u talk about, why should i care about them? If they dont play sc2, what relevance to they have? my answer is none. I would gladly see every bw-player in the world switch to sc2, but if they dont, i couldnt care less. Conclusion: well written article, the facts seems right but they are still irrelevant, and mostentimes pointless. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:18 Deadeight wrote: I'm not saying why it happened, just that it sounds boring. Maybe (going on what people are saying here) that's partly why SC2 has gotten so much bigger (outside of korea) than BW did. Because there's competition, the games are exciting, and you don't know who is going to win. Being a great spectator experience isn't just about watching someone being very good at something. Otherwise we'd all sit watching chess. I stand by it, from that description that I quoted in my post, Brood War sounds incredibly boring to watch. You should maybe watch one of those "boring turtle" TvTs. Flash vs Fantasy @ Polaris Rhapsody for instance. BW is exciting to watch, and high level TvT is one of the most exciting match up in my humble zerg opinion. As for domination being good or not, well, it's a question of taste, and even Flash loses game, so... | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
This is true. This is very true. But then you go on : "Therefore I cannot enjoy these games". Why ? Did you not enjoy BW back in 2004? Were the player good then? Would Nada in his prime even stand a chance against Flash today ? Would Boxer be able to win by triple bunker rush Jaedong? I doubt so. Was Savi0r 98%win rate MSL run just 'Friday Nigth Football'. The fact that SC2 players are bad compared to 2018 SC2 standard doesnt mean the game is not enjoyable. Please give time for the players to get better, for new talents to arise, and to former champion to fall. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:28 Gustaf wrote: I never watched bw, im a gold-leagueplayer and i enjoy watching sc2. These legends and gods u talk about, why should i care about them? You sound like a greek hero blaspheming to the higher invisible gods. They could smite you. | ||
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Mr.Brightside
Australia317 Posts
The derogatory tone about SC2 being expressed by many of the old posters is really shocking to me. I enjoy both and I think they both are entertaining from some same and some different reasons, I just don't see why it has to be hammered into the ground that SC2 is a "farce" just because people like Flash or Firebathero aren't playing it. YEAH THAT'S RIGHT I SAID FIREBATHERO *hipthrust* | ||
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Nu11
Canada167 Posts
Would Flash be the top of SC2? I doubt it. I would assume the countless hours of repetition in BW would actually hinder his learning of SC2. It is a vastly different game. I would love for him to be the top though, he is obviously the most talented Brood war player of all time and watching him play is like a dream. As it stands, players like NesTea, MVP and MC are the Flash's Jaedongs and Bisu's of SC2. There was a time when players like Boxer and Nada were considered the best in Brood war as well. Times change, games change. You don't compare the different eras and you shouldn't compare the games the way you did. If we were to roll back time to when Boxer and Nada were once the top of the top in BW, but they are both just average SC2 players. Just trying to clarify that it's a different game. Comparisons simply cannot be drawn. Until one of these players has come and dominated no one can say for sure. very little knowledge of the inner workings of TvT in SC:BW will help you with TvT in SC2. They are vastly different games. Again, please no hate. Great article and it was a great read, just presenting a different view. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:17 Fraidnot wrote: Well then do you want to address the complaints that veteran members have brought up about the article instead of sweeping them aside? It's calling the scene a farse, not developing, and it's doing this by calling the players bad. I took the article differently than they did. There's really nothing more that I can say when I read the article differently than those who disagree with me. He said the guys on top of sc2 were bad at BW and are now dominating sc2. This is true is it not? Then he says when the really good BW players come over to sc2, they will be dominating sc2. I don't really see the problem with that. Is it harsh to call it a "farce"? Yes. But in a few years, there is a very good chance we look back and agree with it because of the way sc2 is played right now. I find sc2 very entertaining. But I also expect gameplay to be way better in the future. I would actually be very upset if it wasn't. At the infancy of this game, it should be a farce in what it develops into. The game hasn't even been out for a year (not including beta). Things are far from figured out. I can definitely understand why some BW guys don't find sc2 all that entertaining. After all it is just an opinion. I don't expect MVP, MC, and Nestea to be dominating sc2 in the way that Flash and others have dominated BW. While they are great players, they haven't shown me that they are at that transcendent level. Of course that could change, but right now I'm not seeing it. Why is it so bad to say that since the best RTS players aren't playing sc2 makes sc2 not the best product? Thats how competition works at every level. Its like saying the Euroleage is a farce compared to the NBA. Guess what? It is! The best players are in the NBA, not in the Euroleague. Knowing this I find the NBA far more entertaining. | ||
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itiswhatitis
United States136 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:29 Boonbag wrote: You sound like a greek hero blaspheming to the higher invisible gods. They could smite you. But he has a point... why should sc2 fans care about BW pros unless they do actually come to sc2? We like watching sc2, and will continue to like it as it evolves and the skill levels go higher and higher. Like a few other people said, I'd love for all the bw pros to switch over, it would be awesome to have a lot more talented players to watch. But, until they do... I don't really care. I don't watch BW. I watch sc2. | ||
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SpaceToaster
United States289 Posts
Why is everyone considering this a bash on SC2? Nowhere does it compare the two games whatsoever. It only compares the scenes and players. Its true, the truly talented (Korean) players have no reason to switch, they have everything they could dream of in BW. When top SC2 salaries/prestige starts growing, and top BW prestige starts dropping, we're going to see a crop of extremely talented Koreans switch that will put the current lineup (if they don't grow to meet them) to shame. Here's hoping that we get some foreigners that are willing to put in the effort to get that good, so we can truly see a global scene! | ||
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KryptoStorm
England377 Posts
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MrChupee
Australia161 Posts
Foreward: If I come off to harsh or flaming, I am prepared for a warning or a banning; but know that this is not my intention. I also think due to my lateness, a lot of these points got covered; so only the firestarter is slightly relevant: but I'd like to voice myself I agree on a lot of discussions (I guess mostly preceded by the MC interview video? That seems like the most obvious development, from undercurrent to public news) shown here but I cannot feel that this piece has some tone in itself of BW Elitism which serves as the inspiration to write a long thing. But before I begin, I'd like you to know iccup: D- ; highest ELO: 1200pts SEA SC2: Platinum; highest pts: 1100pts SEA NA: Diamond; highest pts: 200pts So I am not particularly a very good player, but the one thing I want to stress very badly is that I play both games. You begin by comparing 3 of the current GSL open/regular champions' winrates in BW (Yes, they are not what I would expect out of Code *S* players) but also point out the fact that victory comes along with the trademark BW experience that we would expect to carry these progamers into a sequel of the franchise. You then go on to cite their winrates in BW; not exactly the most flattering scores (MC in particular), but more than these awful scores I want to ask *why* would you want to do this? The fact they may have been less than awesome BW progamers does not discount the fact they are currently showing us good games and actually took the time to fight their way in the Open Seasons *and* keep fighting on to where they are today. You cannot call the effort they put in a farce. Yes the BW teams are much more intense and can burn people out, but weren't there articles previously about how SC2's proteam practice regimens allowed for a better lifestyle *exactly* because it wasn't a KeSPA practice house? You next section: ["I don't know if it's okay to say this, but in the end pros play to make money." ] in it you cite that money is the same reason BW pros do not switch. I am confused as to where you are taking this; so should MC and Mvp have stayed on their respective teams to be those guys who grinded out games and maybe got a shot at being played just because the BW pros would not switch? If money is the incentive to move and the only way to get money is to win...they'd better be confident they have the mad skillz to take home a trophy (of which a few of the examples discussed have). Although the next section is not something I want to contest: I wholeheartedly agree that the BW progamers have monstrous skills, sense and abilities simply due to the raw amount of games and experience they rack up (both on and off tv). Although the one callout I have to say is that comparing everyone to be like TBLS is a pretty darned huge call (two of your coach quotes on JD and But yes, I also agree with BoxeR, NaDa and July coming back for the fans (BoxeR even saying that was the reason himself) but is that such a bad ideal? They want to please their fans by showing off their passion for the game in what I can only see as the final stand of the old guard (not saying BoxeR's going out of Code A anytime soon >_>;; I raged pretty hard when BoxeR fell down). Although the crux of why I wrote such a verbose reply is probably the concluding point and returns me to the question of *why*. [there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment ]: What bearing does this have on a Code A or Code S player (I think this was mentioned in one of the thread replies)? Winners are not going to make sacred pilgrimages to the team houses of the TBLS and deliver their Code S medallions (or Code A urchins =P) just because they are perceived to be of less skill. I was repeatedly bashed to death on iccup and the one thing I learned? Not just reputation: go out and kill them if you can. It bears not that A-teamers may or may not be better than the current generation of SC2 progamers. So until that fortold day when the A-teamers come in droves to the GSL we can watch the games that the players currently show us regardless of their cross-game lineage flipping between Tastosis jokes and the roars of Korean starleague commentators and think no less of either game. After notes: I basically just really hate this topic; it comes up a lot when I discuss SC2 games with my friend who plays on iccup way more than laddering SC2. I have passion for both games and it really really ticks me when people think less of SC2 progamers just because they were 'failed' BW progamers. But...if some SC2 gamer tells me Flash is a nub... I will kill that person, then direct them to this article. I wholeheartedlty agree with this article in terms of a purely “well, these are true facts” sense. Firestarter: Would we have this discussion if GSL Season 3 was a golden age of macro games rather than the era of BitByBitPrime.WE ?? | ||
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eggs
1011 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:29 Tyrran wrote: I'm not 100% sure what the point of this article is. Basically, how i understand this is "The best players at SC2 are not even good yet". This is true. This is very true. But then you go on : "Therefore I cannot enjoy these games". Why ? Did you not enjoy BW back in 2004? Were the player good then? Would Nada in his prime even stand a chance against Flash today ? Would Boxer be able to win by triple bunker rush Jaedong? I doubt so. Was Savi0r 98%win rate MSL run just 'Friday Nigth Football'. The fact that SC2 players are bad compared to 2018 SC2 standard doesnt mean the game is not enjoyable. Please give time for the players to get better, for new talents to arise, and to former champion to fall. i searched for the lines you quoted and couldn't find them. if you're going to argue with somebody don't put words in their mouth. it makes your arguments relying on misquotes meaningless. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:29 Boonbag wrote: You sound like a greek hero blaspheming to the higher invisible gods. They could smite you. Why should we care about some old Korean BW players? If they switch then cool I'll start to follow them but if they don't then I really don't care. I'm a SC2 fan not a BW fan. On May 12 2011 18:32 SpaceToaster wrote:Why is everyone considering this a bash on SC2? Calling the scene a farce and the games unenjoyable is generally considered bashing. | ||
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KingVietKong
United States170 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:29 Tyrran wrote: The fact that SC2 players are bad compared to 2018 SC2 standard doesnt mean the game is not enjoyable. Please give time for the players to get better, for new talents to arise, and to former champion to fall. This is exactly what I was thinking the whole read. It's hard to argue that top BW players wouldn't come over and crush faces pretty quickly, but I find it hard to argue that SC2 is comparable to a high school football game. Admittedly, my high school's team sucked balls, but that's besides the point. If you look at the development of the game since launch, compare Season 1 and the Season 5 GSL games, it's such a wide expanse of skill in only a few months. SC2 has the potential to be a much better game than it is now, and it will become so with just a little time. | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:26 Mailing wrote: It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with group size. If you had a sample of 8000 brood war fans, the forum would be not more mature. If SC2 only had 1000 fans, they would be as polite as the BW fans are. Large audience brings out bad in people. Nah I'm sure it will have quite a bit to do with age. You are right, group size plays a part, but age does too in this case. How many 10-18 year olds picked up Brood War in say, 2004-2009? How many picked up SC2 when it came out? I don't have the numbers, but you get the idea. | ||
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laguu
Finland278 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:32 KryptoStorm wrote: As someone pretty new into the SC scene (Basically briefly played and watched a shit-ton of Sc2) I found this article interesting, makes me really want to see players like 'Flash' and 'Bisu' and 'JaeDong' play, I try watching BW but it's hard for someone to even understand what's going on for a Sc2 only player. There's a TON of brood war content on gomtv.net casted by tasteless. Thats a good place to start. | ||
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Kinshuk
India116 Posts
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