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On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know.
EDIT: It seems I should clarify that I don't imply any of these players are lacking work ethic or not putting the amount of hours. That's not it, I'm sure they play a ton of games, and spend many hours. But the game itself, in every game they play, is far from the intensity and sharpness required of them to play BW and that's very visible.On January 11 2012 09:19 iky43210 wrote:
I don't get why people keep bringing up MVP in his broodwar days and use it as some proof that he is average. When people make these kind of statements, you're implying either sc2 and sc1 is the exact same game, or that people can't change and only the game changes.
Newsflash, people changes and gets better all the time, some faster than others. Unless you believes we're all robots with set conditions and improves linearly. I've made exactly the same argument before too, and I do believe that some of the not-so-successful ex-BW pros who became SC2 monsters may have just improved as RTS players in general in the meantime, especially the younger ones. However, that doesn't change that when you watch them play you don't see them exert the amount of effort required to play high level BW. Some of them may even have devolved from their BW days, and still winning some prestige and money in SC2.
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I like how he loses to a 2 time Code S GSL champion and a recent GSL finalist (despite taking games off of them) and people are saying he sucks.
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On January 11 2012 09:24 tobi9999 wrote:
Really? BW is dying? o_O Christ I haven't payed much attention to Korea
I haven't looked at a lot of threads recently, but what I heard just like a month ago that it was still vastly more popular than SC2, which is not even a top 10 game in Korean PCBangs :O
My impression was that there was much more money in Korean BW than SC2. Isn't the only reason that Gom has SC2 leagues is because the BW pros won't play in their BW leagues?
Actually GOM has SC2 leagues is because blizzard gave them koreas sole broadcasting rights, which means that if the other leagues wanted to pick up SC2 they would only be able to do so by paying GOM for the rights to broadcast SC2, if GOM decided to let them.
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On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know.
ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O
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On January 11 2012 09:24 tobi9999 wrote:
Really? BW is dying? o_O Christ I haven't payed much attention to Korea
I haven't looked at a lot of threads recently, but what I heard just like a month ago that it was still vastly more popular than SC2, which is not even a top 10 game in Korean PCBangs :O
My impression was that there was much more money in Korean BW than SC2. Isn't the only reason that Gom has SC2 leagues is because the BW pros won't play in their BW leagues?
You stick to BW and you isolate yourself from where a lot of money is. It is pretty clear that GOM makes a shit ton of cash from foreigner subscriptions. Not to mention you don't have to compete with 2 much bigger leagues (well 1 now).
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know.
What about his play makes you think he's not putting in effort?
MVP plays a minimum of 30 games/day despite fairly serious CTS, I don't think that's a bad work ethic.
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On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know.
his play? what kind of argument is that, and I doubt you have any insider knowledge about how much time each ex-BW progamers are spending practicing. MVP probably has the most refined play out of any sc2 pros so far, not many players come close atm
beside MVP has already made 200k a year in winning prizes, probably over 300k including other sources. I doubt he is lacking any motivation to get more this year
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On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better.
The fact is you dont know jack shit about how much effort they put in, during the Naniwa v Nestea fiasco it was said Nestea was up very late practicing all night. I don't know how much more effort they can put in.
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On January 11 2012 09:11 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:06 Sated wrote:On January 11 2012 08:58 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 08:43 Tantaburs wrote:On January 11 2012 08:38 Linwelin wrote:On January 11 2012 08:25 Tantaburs wrote:You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more. That is exactly why you can say something is better. "Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same. You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more. You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated. Same thing applies to broodwar fans Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down. Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2 You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread) Strategy wise, it remains to be seen. Most of the need for better mechanics in BW comes from the game being broken on a fundamental engine-based level - if the AI wasn't a crapshoot etc. BW wouldn't be anywhere near as complex mechanically. I'd rather play a game that works than one that gimps the player. Err, are you to something like Dragoon vs ramps? In which case yeah you're correct. (Although it does make for hilarious/heart breaking situations.) However something like 12 units per group compared to an unlimited number is not a broken mechanic, it is just a different mechanic. And one certainly takes more skill to utilize than the other
Interestingly, back in the day rumor had it that the 12 units per group wasn't actually a necessity (compare AoE II) but just that, a mechanic – and a balance mechanic at that, as the feeling was that Zerg with infinite unit select was far too strong especially in the early game. Though I can't find source to back this up at the moment – I'm thinking old SC:L or SC.org threads somewhere.
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On January 11 2012 09:31 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O
People feeling more freedom isnt necessarily a bad thing, quite the opposite probably. Players will still make eachother better by just wanting to win. forGG also said on twitter that he dont think sc2 is easier than BW.
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On January 11 2012 09:53 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:31 jidolboy wrote:On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O People feeling more freedom isnt necessarily a bad thing, quite the opposite probably.
Well having more freedom can be a good thing. But it also indicates that he is not working hard as he was before.
Players will still make eachother better by just wanting to win. forGG also said on twitter that he dont think sc2 is easier than BW.
Unless he wants to get hated my many, I don't think he will say SC2 is easier game in PUBLIC. Unless he is REAL confident in his skill
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On January 11 2012 10:02 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:53 aderum wrote:On January 11 2012 09:31 jidolboy wrote:On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O People feeling more freedom isnt necessarily a bad thing, quite the opposite probably. Well having more freedom can be a good thing. But it also indicates that he is not working hard as he was before. Show nested quote +Players will still make eachother better by just wanting to win. forGG also said on twitter that he dont think sc2 is easier than BW. Unless he wants to get hated my many, I don't think he will say SC2 is easier game in PUBLIC. Unless they are REAL confident in their skill
having more freedom does not indicate he's not working as hard as before. forGG is always streaming and personally I have never seen him offline
if he does think sc2 is easier, he wouldn't have said anything at all and risk flames from bw enthusiastic.
No reason to assume he's lying
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On January 11 2012 10:02 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:53 aderum wrote:On January 11 2012 09:31 jidolboy wrote:On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O People feeling more freedom isnt necessarily a bad thing, quite the opposite probably. Well having more freedom can be a good thing. But it also indicates that he is not working hard as he was before. Show nested quote +Players will still make eachother better by just wanting to win. forGG also said on twitter that he dont think sc2 is easier than BW. Unless he wants to get hated my many, I don't think he will say SC2 is easier game in PUBLIC. Unless he is REAL confident in his skill
Having freedom dont make you work less hard, working hard is about dedication to become the best. Its not about having someone standing over your shoulder to make sure you are giving 100%.
On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:
Unless he wants to get hated my many, I don't think he will say SC2 is easier game in PUBLIC. Unless he is REAL confident in his skill
That might be true, but it doesnt change the fact that he said it, and then we can speculate for ever what he REALLY meant.
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On January 11 2012 09:53 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:31 jidolboy wrote:On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. ya, even ForGG himself said in a interview that he felt more freedom after switching to ogs :O People feeling more freedom isnt necessarily a bad thing, quite the opposite probably. Players will still make eachother better by just wanting to win. forGG also said on twitter that he dont think sc2 is easier than BW.
That's just his opinion. Midas said the exact opposite in an interview (That he couldn't believe such an easy game (Starcraft 2) exists)
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On January 11 2012 09:06 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 08:58 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 08:43 Tantaburs wrote:On January 11 2012 08:38 Linwelin wrote:On January 11 2012 08:25 Tantaburs wrote:You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more. That is exactly why you can say something is better. "Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same. You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more. You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated. Same thing applies to broodwar fans Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down. Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2 You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread) Strategy wise, it remains to be seen. Most of the need for better mechanics in BW comes from the game being broken on a fundamental engine-based level - if the AI wasn't a crapshoot etc. BW wouldn't be anywhere near as complex mechanically. I'd rather play a game that works than one that gimps the player.
On January 11 2012 09:10 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:06 Sated wrote:On January 11 2012 08:58 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 08:43 Tantaburs wrote:On January 11 2012 08:38 Linwelin wrote:On January 11 2012 08:25 Tantaburs wrote:You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more. That is exactly why you can say something is better. "Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same. You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more. You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated. Same thing applies to broodwar fans Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down. Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2 You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread) Strategy wise, it remains to be seen. Most of the need for better mechanics in BW comes from the game being broken on a fundamental engine-based level - if the AI wasn't a crapshoot etc. BW wouldn't be anywhere near as complex mechanically. I'd rather play a game that works than one that gimps the player. Agreed, I hate when people use bw's outdated and broken interface as a crutch to say it takes more skill. It doesn't take more skill. It takes more rote practice and forces you to become a practice robot to overcome it, so you're on par with the other practice robots. It's an inefficient use of skill but a necessary one in other to compete with others at the highest level. I'd rather take real skill like strategy, decision making, etc as the basis for true skill evaluation over who can master the broken interface the best with hours of rote and mundane practice.
Because we all know you are tactical and strategical geniuses who are only being held back by mechanics....lmao
Get your head out of your ass. You like playing SC2 more because it's easier for you to get wins. Fine with me. But denouncing the most successful esport in history as "broken" and "doesn't work" just because you suck at it is absolutely hilarious.
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On January 11 2012 09:28 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 09:18 pique wrote:On January 11 2012 09:15 figq wrote:On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote:
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves. I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better. what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros? His play. I'm not the first to mention this argument here, and it's not about MVP in particular. None of the ex-BW progamers are currently playing as tough as they had to in BW. Maybe it's lack of motivation or the engine itself, or the generous prizes in the SC2 scene, I don't know. EDIT: It seems I should clarify that I don't imply any of these players are lacking work ethic or not putting the amount of hours. That's not it, I'm sure they play a ton of games, and spend many hours. But the game itself, in every game they play, is far from the intensity and sharpness required of them to play BW and that's very visible.
I don't know what to tell you other than you have to remember that this is a completely different game. Messing up certain things in BW may not have be as large a deal in SC2 (worker efficiency). IDK if that's true or not, but it seems likely that given the fact that they are such radically different games, certain aspects of one may be emphasized, and others may be deemphesized. The way to measure "sharpness and intensity" in one game is different than in the other. Vastly different. You can't take BW skills and then say that those are RTS skills, and all other games will be judged along those lines. What works in BW probably doesn't work the same way in WC3 or SC2 or any other RTS.
've made exactly the same argument before too, and I do believe that some of the not-so-successful ex-BW pros who became SC2 monsters may have just improved as RTS players in general in the meantime, especially the younger ones. However, that doesn't change that when you watch them play you don't see them exert the amount of effort required to play high level BW. Some of them may even have devolved from their BW days, and still winning some prestige and money in SC2.
They've probably improved a lot, yes, but again it seems as though you're confusing RTS skill with BW skill. RTS skill is displayed in BW, perhaps at a level that it is not displayed elsewhere. That is inarguable. But that does not mean that BW skills are the exact skills that one needs in all RTS games. Even if you consider BW the height of RTS gaming, there are RTS games that are vastly different, and cannot accurately be compared to BW in the way you are. Without specific games or events that you can cite, I don't know what to tell you about the feeling that they aren't trying as hard to win.
Basically, my problem is that you are not taking the fact that SC2 is not like BW at all into account.
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I wish that a mod would lock this already. I doubt the author of this article would have the audacity to stand by his claims this many months later into the game.
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On January 11 2012 10:16 Vei wrote:
I wish that a mod would lock this already. I doubt the author of this article would have the audacity to stand by his claims this many months later into the game.
lol, try reading just a few pages ago
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ok so now that everyone knows forgg is nothing special, what does intrigue say?
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On January 11 2012 10:21 m3rciless wrote:
ok so now that everyone knows forgg is nothing special, what does intrigue say?
Apparentely getting to Code S on your first try and losing to the best zerg and protoss in the world makes you nothing special now....
I agree, lock this thread.
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EPT
