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nGBeast
United States914 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:48 -TesteR- wrote: Nobody said he wasn't a great player, he's just not a player who can come and dominate the SC2 scene just because he has a rich BW history.  This is exactly what I meant. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
On January 11 2012 10:34 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Fin 6-0'd his way through Code A. He took matches off some of the best players in the world. He is currently competing at a high level in the most competitive Starcraft 2 league in the world. He is also relatively new to the game. I would say he deserves a little bit of hype... edit: more accurate now how do you define new to the game? hes been playing for over a year | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 12 2012 03:40 VPCursed wrote: how do you define new to the game? hes been playing for over a year Sounds about right. Less than a year = new. Bit over a year = relatively new. I'm thinking there isn't an exact cut off in terms of numbers of days played or something | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
So he should be considered new, playing casually on ladder shouldn't count. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On January 12 2012 03:47 iky43210 wrote: Doesn't matter how long forGG has been playing on ladder. Whether he is new to the scene or not depends on when he joined the competitive side. So he should be considered new, playing casually on ladder shouldn't count. Having 3 accounts in GM (and well rated) iirc is not casually playing on ladder tbh... | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On January 12 2012 03:50 Roggay wrote: Having 3 accounts in GM (and well rated) iirc is not casually playing on ladder tbh... However, mass gaming on ladder, even the KR ladder, can only get a player so far. The most successful players will also be grinding out and refining builds off ladder against teammates and practice partners. IMO, ForGG is a rather unusual case to look at in regards to the elephant in the room argument. He is very solid and talented, but the fact that he laddered incognito for so long really adds quite a bit of confusion to his case. He is new yet he is also not new. He is not new to playing SC2, but he is relatively new to competing professionally in the SC2 pro scene. If you interpret the elephant in the room argument as "if the BW pros switch, they will immediately start dominating," then ForGG is a rather poor example since he has been playing SC2 exclusively for a while via hardcore ladder practice. IMO,  HyuN would be a better player to watch if thinking about this interpretation of the argument since he is the freshest, arguably one of the highest level BW to SC2 switcher as of late. If you interpret the argument as "the better the BW pro the player was at the time of the switch, the better they will be at SC2," then perhaps ForGG is still a very relevant example to examine. Indeed, he is out of Code S, but he is not out of GSL just yet. Judging from his recent performances, he is still solid as fuck and will definitely be a very relevant player in scene for a long time to come. Again, HyuN will also be a good player to watch considering his skill level around the time of his switch as well as how new he is to the game itself. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
there certainly is an elephant in the room. ForGG might not be that elephant (for whatever reason, irrelevant), but it's certainly there. Very few of the top players did not come from previous RTS experience. Generally speaking, the players who were the best at their previous RTS domains are better than their counterparts at SC2. Since BW is the most played game requiring the broadest skillset, it's obvious that the best BW players are likely to be the best SC2 players. Until some sort of analysis is provided that indicates the skillsets of SC2 are drastically different than any other RTS game made before it, we can assume that the skill ceilings will increase as more top tier players switch from their previous games. Cool. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:39 HolyArrow wrote: I think we really need to clarify something here. No one is saying (at least, I hope not, because that would be stupid) that fOrGG is bad. In fact, he's pretty damn good. All people are saying is that when Leenock can make it look fairly one-sided and a jet-lagged MC manages to win, fOrGG is far from some example of how a player's strong BW background enables him to crush the current strongest of SC2's competition. MC and ForGG practice together. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
This just means that the game is going to get even more awesome once those top player switch. And if they don't, nothing is lost.. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
That's fine. I understand that matches between teammates/people who practice together get weird, and sometimes you have unexpected outcomes. But that doesn't change the fact that Leenock also beat fOrGG pretty handily, nor does it change my broader point about how fOrGG's performance was far from some silly roflstomp like his Code A run was that brought this topic back in the first place. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:55 Yorbon wrote: Am I the only one who thinks this article is quite positive? This just means that the game is going to get even more awesome once those top player switch. And if they don't, nothing is lost.. I know right? Imagine a foreign player taking games of Flash in SC2. NEW FOREIGN HOPE. I think the more competition, the better. It will force the foreign scene to either practice their asses off or fall out like in BW. Either way, I will never tire of watching top level SC2, but I worry a bit about what would happen to the foreign SC2 scene... | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:33 eviltomahawk wrote: However, mass gaming on ladder, even the KR ladder, can only get a player so far. The most successful players will also be grinding out and refining builds off ladder against teammates and practice partners. Players who are staying in Korea long-term like Naniwa and SaSe have said many times that 99% of their practice is just ladder and they don't play with practice partners very often. Different people like to practice in different ways. | ||
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Kuskinator
United Kingdom43 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:33 eviltomahawk wrote: However, mass gaming on ladder, even the KR ladder, can only get a player so far. The most successful players will also be grinding out and refining builds off ladder against teammates and practice partners. Well he's been in oGs for coming up to 4 months now - so that's 4 months of proper practice in a very solid, well-rounded teamhouse full for current high level SC2 pro's. This whole argument really is losing ground. ForGG is the highest level BW pro that's switched over thus far and had a lot of momentum. He was then placed into a difficult group first round of Code S and dropped down. By the way, the only reason that group was considered the [second?] hardest is because he was in it. He has been practicing the game for 8 months apparently, half of that with a dedicated team of practice partners, and did not dominate as much as what some people (and this article) has suggested. No one can say that he's new to the SC2 "pro scene" as an excuse as it can not be vastly dissimilar to the BW scene. He is, however, an incredibly talented player that did well to get as far as he did on the first attempt and will continue to improve and post better results as time goes on. How much longer will it be before he can win Code S? No one knows - and after how much time does it take for him to win anything before it stops being about his BW background and becomes about his SC2 dedication and practice since the switch. Same goes for any other top BW player, where do you draw the line? | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:55 Yorbon wrote: Am I the only one who thinks this article is quite positive? This just means that the game is going to get even more awesome once those top player switch. And if they don't, nothing is lost.. That depends on whether or not you're feeling that the SC2 scene so far is good as it is. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6667 Posts
But don't forget about HyuN... guy plays for what 3 months? and makes it through the code A qualifiers? that is absolutely mind blowing imo. I really want to see what he is going to play like in Code A this season! HYPE! | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:33 cive wrote: Are you sure you watched the game? Were you not impressed by forGG's everything? Did you not see forGG's build which was risky at times but could have killed a zerg at many different timings? Leenock tailored the game according to forGG's style, teching quickly and safely. ForGG also showed creative unit composition by making small number of tanks and medivacs, which emphasized his amazing micro with marines. This freed up a lot of gas which allowed forGG to expand quickly while upgrading and teching. Only if forGG saved the planetary fortress in the middle expansion... I don't understand why people think he didn't live up to his expectations. Sure he lost, but definitely forGG is a great player. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who watched the games and was absolutely blown away still by ForGG. I assume you're a Terran player as well? Maybe you need to be a higher level Terran player to realize just how great ForGG played in those games and only a few minor errors cost him dearly. His mechanics, especially his spending, was absolutely insane. I'd love to see his SQ on the game on Daybreak. It looked like his minerals never went over 300. | ||
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bLooD.
Germany470 Posts
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
Im curious because ... Starcraft wasn't that balanced, thats why i don't get so many people claim it was. As far as I know some balance came later on. It was somewhat of a patch, which costed money. I guess it was called something like Starcraft 1.1 ... or no, it was better souding. Ah right i remember, they called it: Broodwar. And after that the major part of balance was added by ... ummm ... wait for it .... THE FANS!!!! Right, sometimes i forget about all those things when I look at Starcraft 2 and grab my toilet paper and wipe out all my little zerg tears after dying; because the game is so unbalanced and lacks of so many ways to show your true skill. Edit: Grammar and english skills in general suck hard after a long day of work :D | ||
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