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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:08 IntoTheheart wrote: Ah, and that depends on how you view the world in general; how it is, or how it should be. You can guess what I think..That depends on whether or not you're feeling that the SC2 scene so far is good as it is. I sincerely hope your comment wasn't cynical.  | ||
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nqqvt3
Canada55 Posts
 fOrGG wasnt great it was that the elephant was as soon as bw ProS switch over they are instantly the best, fOrGG has been playing for atleast 5-6 months and didnt win GSL, and is far from being considered the best. there for the elephant is silenced..................for now | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:25 nqqvt3 wrote: Its not that fOrGG wasnt great it was that the elephant was as soon as bw ProS switch over they are instantly the best, fOrGG has been playing for atleast 5-6 months and didnt win GSL, and is far from being considered the best. there for the elephant is silenced..................for now Very eloquent post. But did you sincerely read at least ONE post of the last 10 pages? You will notice some redundancy. Edit: Forgot to add the irony *powdering the post with irony dust* | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
Why do we have the expectation that every serious progamer should play one (strategy) game, and otherwise competition in some games become a farce? In sports, nobody would expect this. Is rugby a farce as long as americans prefer to play football, or is it the other way around? Would Federer, Nadal or Djokovic play badminton a the highest level if they would take 2 years of practice to switch? And oh hai, even in sports some players switch sports during their career (mostly to one who requires similar skills obv) and remain successful. Like every now and then, a sprinter wins something in long jumping. But does this mean the olympic long jump competition is a joke until Usain Bolt decides to participate? | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:37 Mafe wrote: Since I have not seen this argument after reading several pages thorugh the history of this thread: Why do we have the expectation that every serious progamer should play one (strategy) game, and otherwise competition in some games become a farce? In sports, nobody would expect this. Is rugby a farce as long as americans prefer to play football, or is it the other way around? Would Federer, Nadal or Djokovic play badminton a the highest level if they would take 2 years of practice to switch? And oh hai, even in sports some players switch sports during their career (mostly to one who requires similar skills obv) and remain successful. Like every now and then, a sprinter wins something in long jumping. But does this mean the olympic long jump competition is a joke until Usain Bolt decides to participate? I think what the OP really wanted us all to know, is that baseball was a complete farce of a sport until micheal jordan switched over to it, oh and that forgg is still the best player ever and mc is awful because forgg was better than mc in BW so forgg must still be better, damn that jet lagged mc for gettingn so lucky! | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:37 Mafe wrote: Since I have not seen this argument after reading several pages thorugh the history of this thread: Why do we have the expectation that every serious progamer should play one (strategy) game, and otherwise competition in some games become a farce? In sports, nobody would expect this. Is rugby a farce as long as americans prefer to play football, or is it the other way around? Would Federer, Nadal or Djokovic play badminton a the highest level if they would take 2 years of practice to switch? And oh hai, even in sports some players switch sports during their career switch sports (mostly one who requires similar skills obv) and remain successful. Like every now and then, a sprinter wins something in long jumping. But does this mean the olympic long jump competition is a joke until Usain Bolt decides to participate? They are two different games with similar skill sets. With regards to U.I. Some users might recall me talking about treating U.I.'s as the rulebook every player follows. With that frame of mind, let's consider European Hockey rule sets or IIHF regulations to North American rule sets (NHL). They are different yet very similar. The game is always changing in both markets. Now I could make a very long list of the differences and the reasoning given by both leagues, but I will only give you one example or else this could go on for hours, but it will be a big one that I think most people can grasp. As I said the game is always changing in both markets to make the game more entertaining. For example, the NHL wanted to get rid of all the clutching and grabbing to create more room for the players and to increase goal scoring. In other words, they wanted the flow of the game to be faster. Something they've always been striving for. Anyway, years back they decided to take out the red line thus getting rid of two-line passing to increase the tempo of the game (less whistles/starts and stops). Did it work? Somewhat. More rule changes to come. Now, some are saying the game is too fast as the media continues to rant on about the deaths and concussions of star players in the NHL. Go figure. What about European hockey? Well sir, they play on a much bigger ice surface compared to the North American game. Same skill sets! Yet the game is different and the Europeans have shown they can play very well in the North American system and smaller ice surface. Like I said. Both games are always evolving. Just like BW and SC2. Hopefully that helps. The only intention Intrigue had with the article in question is the fact that there is a very big talent pool out there that is untapped. This topic will always come up no matter what. Win or lose. The funny thing about the last complaints is the fact that ForGG lost to not only very experienced players but they were BW players as well. Both IdrA and ForGG got caught in groups of death. This isn't to be considered an excuse but a good challenge for both. More opportunities will present themselves. | ||
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FlyingDike
United States221 Posts
Secondly, Leenock and MC are the top 3 players in the world of their respective races, and Supernova is a very solid terran player than has very consistent but not dominating result. For fOrGG to have made it out of his group, he would have had to beaten Leeenock and Supernova/MC, which is not an easy task even more MVP. Thus, fOrGG not making out of his group means very little, we will have to wait and see how he does in the future. | ||
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:59 HolyArrow wrote: That's fine. I understand that matches between teammates/people who practice together get weird, and sometimes you have unexpected outcomes. But that doesn't change the fact that Leenock also beat fOrGG pretty handily, nor does it change my broader point about how fOrGG's performance was far from some silly roflstomp like his Code A run was that brought this topic back in the first place. Yea, it's not like Leenock won a super stacked MLG and was in the most recent GSL finals or anything, showcasing some of the best ZvT in SC2... You're right. Brood war players should never lose. If 2 former brood war players face off each other in SC2, the world will explode. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
For one thing, the most dominating players in SC2 are practically all former BW players, albeit most were subpar players in BW (and the ones who were really good at some point were pretty bad at the time of switching (Boxer, Nada, July) as they've been burned out). Why they're being ignored and all the focus is on ForGG is silly. Why are people discussing ForGG when there's MVP, Nestea, MC, etc., all of whom were BW players too? Why are people talking about ForGG when he's just recently started in competitive SC2? It's like: "Let's make the point that ForGG didn't win Code S and ignore the fact that MVP, most likely the best SC2 player, was also a BW player." is what I'm seeing a lot of in this thread, along with other ignorant things that have been pointed out. I'm going to laugh when Kespa decides it's time to switch the BW pro teams to SC2 and the whole lot of current Korean SC2 players aren't heard of again within in a year after the switch :S. There is just exponentially so much more skill and talent in BW in Korea (for obvious reasons, like it being a national sport and the players being pop star celebrity status). I care for SC2 a lot more than for BW the past couple years, but I'm going to be objective. To deny that BW doesn't dominate Korea's SC talent is absurd and shows no understanding of Starcraft. This is going to come as a surprise to some of you but it needs to be said: SC2 in Korea is really, really tiny comparing to BW there. It's like your dad's corner convenience store compared to Wal-Mart corporation. When will SC2 become big in Korea? When the BW teams are switched to SC2. That's pretty much when Korean SC2 skill level will jump 10 tiers. Right now is just the calm before the storm. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On January 12 2012 11:57 SkimGuy wrote: Yea, it's not like Leenock won a super stacked MLG and was in the most recent GSL finals or anything, showcasing some of the best ZvT in SC2... You're right. Brood war players should never lose. If 2 former brood war players face off each other in SC2, the world will explode. ...wait, what? I spent a good minute sitting here trying out responses, but I think I'm just going to settle for a good, solid wtf and let your post speak for itself. You're obviously replying to some creature in your head rather than an actual person. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:57 hunts wrote: I think what the OP really wanted us all to know, is that baseball was a complete farce of a sport until micheal jordan switched over to it, oh and that forgg is still the best player ever and mc is awful because forgg was better than mc in BW so forgg must still be better, damn that jet lagged mc for gettingn so lucky! Are you honestly retarded? Do you guy even bother to read and think about stuff before you just let the crap roll out of your mouth. The fact that you think the comparison between BW and SC2 is akin to Basketball and Baseball makes me want to slam my head against the wall. Are you really that idiotic? Baseball is about as akin to Basketball as Broodwar is akin to Call of Duty. Freaking mindboggling you think otherwise. Try imagining BW as baseball and SC2 as softball with slightly different field dimentions or # of players allowed and you might actually have a decent comparison to work off. Until then, don't post in here anymore please. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
Many people in this thread have pointed out that losing to Leenock or MC or being a middle-of-the-road Code S player is no shame. Indeed it isn't - it's a given that BW pros who switch will do well in SC2. However, the OP implies that the BW pros will actually dominate (rather than just being good). This is extrapolating an existing skill set unto a different game - which is not logical. Anyways, I'm also a little torn - if S-class BW pros did indeed dominate, then it does show that SC2 has a high skill ceiling. For now, I'm claiming that SC2 is a different enough game and requires a different skill set - I also believe it's a superior game to BW. | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
And about why boxer or nada or july are not dominating, the reason is that they are not good enough. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:31 Azzur wrote: Anyways, alot of people missing the point of the article - the OP claims that the SC2 competition is a farce because the best people in BW are not playing and the current top SC2 pros are in fact unsuccessful former BW-pros. The inference (the OP doesn't explicit say this, but it's implied) is that if the top S-class BW pros were to switch, they would dominate. As forGG has shown, it won't be that easy - however, elephant defenders will point out that forGG isn't exactly an S-class BW pro. Many people in this thread have pointed out that losing to Leenock or MC or being a middle-of-the-road Code S player is no shame. Indeed it isn't - it's a given that BW pros who switch will do well in SC2. However, the OP implies that the BW pros will actually dominate (rather than just being good). This is extrapolating an existing skill set unto a different game - which is not logical. Anyways, I'm also a little torn - if S-class BW pros did indeed dominate, then it does show that SC2 has a high skill ceiling. For now, I'm claiming that SC2 is a different enough game and requires a different skill set - I also believe it's a superior game to BW. It's not logical? Name 10 pros who do not have previous professional experience in another RTS game. After that, make a list of all the ones that do have previous professional experience. Holy fuck, there's a correlation. BW has the most developed skill set, and the highest skill requirement of all RTS games. Until we have a significant sample size of S-Class BW players make the change over to SC2, we won't really be able to settle whether the elephant is imaginary or not. At this point, ForGG is the only S-Class pro-gamer to switch (well, also Hyun). Whether or not he was successful means fuck all. Move on folks. | ||
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gzo
United States55 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:23 1Eris1 wrote: Are you honestly retarded? Do you guy even bother to read and think about stuff before you just let the crap roll out of your mouth. The fact that you think the comparison between BW and SC2 is akin to Basketball and Baseball makes me want to slam my head against the wall. Are you really that idiotic? Baseball is about as akin to Basketball as Broodwar is akin to Call of Duty. Freaking mindboggling you think otherwise. Try imagining BW as baseball and SC2 as softball with slightly different field dimentions or # of players allowed and you might actually have a decent comparison to work off. Until then, don't post in here anymore please. Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13434 Posts
ForGG was fairly irrelevant on the BW scene when he made the switch so I'd say he was somewhat similar to guys like Nada, July, Boxer etc. His best days were long behind him and it's not like he switched when at the peak of his BW powers. I think Hyun is a more intriguing case currently than ForGG for me. Although he never reached the elite level of BW, he was still a pretty solid A/B class player who could mix it with the best and he only left the game a few month ago. I'd say he was pretty close to his BW peak (certainly better than ForGG for me) when he made the switch. But look, this thread is pretty much stating the bleeding obvious. Of all the top Korean players, I'm not sure if any weren't high-level BW players in some capacity before SC2 came out. I'm sure there are some, but guys like MVP, MMA, Nestea, MC etc were all really good BW players. To then think guys like Flash won't be successful is ridiculous for me. How far they can go, no one really knows but they'd be easily mixing with the best. | ||
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Chytilova
United States790 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:59 HolyArrow wrote: That's fine. I understand that matches between teammates/people who practice together get weird, and sometimes you have unexpected outcomes. But that doesn't change the fact that Leenock also beat fOrGG pretty handily, nor does it change my broader point about how fOrGG's performance was far from some silly roflstomp like his Code A run was that brought this topic back in the first place. I only watched the first game so I'm curious how you can possibly think Leenock beat fOrGG handily in game 1. That was a damn close game. If fOrGG wasn't so careless with his pack of ghosts he probably wins that game. | ||
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:18 Belisarius wrote: ...wait, what? I spent a good minute sitting here trying out responses, but I think I'm just going to settle for a good, solid wtf and let your post speak for itself. You're obviously replying to some creature in your head rather than an actual person. Maybe your sarcasm detector is broken But in case you couldn't tell, I was making fun of all these people who were saying that since forgg didn't win code S with a flawless record, dominating everyone in his path, it obviously means that this article is bs and brood war players aren't as good as we say they are. I just took it to the extreme to show how ridiculous that assumption sounds in real life. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I've known for quite a while now that a lot of people on TL are new to SC (coming during SC2). I saw the forum population explode the past couple years or more with SC2's advent. If anything, the people saying "lol no elephant in the room" prove they're pretty new to SC. You joined in May of 2011. What? | ||
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Mothra
United States1448 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:24 RowdierBob wrote: I wouldn't call ForGG S-Class or Hyun (wtf). ForGG was S-Class for a time though, and that was during the current era of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu etc. It's true though that when he retired he was way below S-Class level. S-Class is such a small and elite group. That's why I think it's exciting to follow ForGG. July, Nada and Boxer reached that level too but in eras that were not as fiercely competitive as now. | ||
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