On January 11 2012 07:24 Phyrigian wrote: the main people who hyped forgg up were the people who knew nothing about him and bandwagonned going "omg bw pro DOOOOOOMINATION omg" when in reality he wasn't really much of anybody and probably on par with somebody like mvp in his bw career.
I think MVP was very much underrated as a BW pro. However, you really underestimate Forgg's career here. He won a MSL beating Flash and Jaedong in 2008.
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
ForGG is not Flash, but he's a legitimate representation of a BW-pro, in a way that Nada and Boxer were not, because they were well into decline and had basically flat-lined by the time they crossed over to SC2. When ForGG retired, he was still a decent Proleague player.
I'm pretty happy with ForGG - he crushed Code A players, made it to Code S, given the short time he's been playing, but there's no beating around the bush, he was beaten by Leenock and MC. Leenock, I'm not that surprised - Code S runner-up, and he's a very skilled user of SC2-specific zerg tactics, like the baneling bomb. I'm more surprised that MC could beat him, with his orthodox, straight-up Protoss style. So I'll have to admit, ForGG didn't do as well as I'd hoped.
On January 11 2012 07:27 Steel wrote: Damn I don't see how ForGG lost he played BW at the top level is he so much better than all the players in SC2 by far like all the BW players that are switching soon. Players like leenock are such a joke even though he 2-0'd ForGG even if he played well. ForGG winning code A pretty much proves that SC2 competition pathetic which justifies this QQ thread.
Why isn't this closed yet? This thread is awful and people are just getting angry at each other and making idiotic arguments why one game is better than the other. If you like this game talk about it and if you don't why don't you stfu and let others have fun? You bashing people screaming BW IS SO MUCH BETTER isn't going to change anything except people will troll you. Sorry.
See you are not really helping. You decided somewhere along the line that BW was stupid/worse and that there is no merit in what people are saying (i.e people with incredible dedication and mechanics may beast up the SC2 scene). Therefore, you come, calling this thread "awful" because people are "angry" but all the while telling other people to "stfu" and saying that they are "idiotic." See I'm not saying there isn't a good amount of dispute, but you seem to single out BW fans and their side of the story and target it explicitly- hence showing that for all your apparent higher moral standard, your ability to stand above petty debates and demand that threads like this should be closed, your bias shows strong. See, I really don't think people are saying things to change things, but like you, to present an opinion. I don't think people will be trolled when presenting their opinion, either pro SC2 or pro BW, and somehow I just found it really really unsettling that you came complaining about other people's stupid arguments while acting so supercilious. <3
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
On January 11 2012 08:36 YMCApylons wrote: ForGG is not Flash, but he's a legitimate representation of a BW-pro, in a way that Nada and Boxer were not, because they were well into decline and had basically flat-lined by the time they crossed over to SC2. When ForGG retired, he was still a decent Proleague player.
I'm pretty happy with ForGG - he crushed Code A players, made it to Code S, given the short time he's been playing, but there's no beating around the bush, he was beaten by Leenock and MC. Leenock, I'm not that surprised - Code S runner-up, and he's a very skilled user of SC2-specific zerg tactics, like the baneling bomb. I'm more surprised that MC could beat him, with his orthodox, straight-up Protoss style. So I'll have to admit, ForGG didn't do as well as I'd hoped.
The "short" amount of time he has been playing is almost a year.
On January 11 2012 08:36 YMCApylons wrote: ForGG is not Flash, but he's a legitimate representation of a BW-pro, in a way that Nada and Boxer were not, because they were well into decline and had basically flat-lined by the time they crossed over to SC2. When ForGG retired, he was still a decent Proleague player.
I'm pretty happy with ForGG - he crushed Code A players, made it to Code S, given the short time he's been playing, but there's no beating around the bush, he was beaten by Leenock and MC. Leenock, I'm not that surprised - Code S runner-up, and he's a very skilled user of SC2-specific zerg tactics, like the baneling bomb. I'm more surprised that MC could beat him, with his orthodox, straight-up Protoss style. So I'll have to admit, ForGG didn't do as well as I'd hoped.
TBH, I think his loss says a lot more about Boxer than anyone is giving it credit for. (That sentance sounded wierd).
ForGG didn't even do as well as Boxer in this tournament, so far. Maybe this "OMG BOXZER SO BAD! LOL!!!" attitude is unjustified? I'm not saying that you have it, but it seems like it stains every post on this thread. The assumption that Boxer was just atrocious at BW and it's oh so funny that he's really good at SC2 because he was so bad at BW. Obviously this game either rewards different skill sets than BW, or Boxer is getting a lot better, or both. Either way, I'm happy as a clam with this season, and think calling this competition a "farce" is itself the biggest farce of the day.
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
Same thing applies to broodwar fans
Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down.
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
Same thing applies to broodwar fans
Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down.
Blame Hot_Bid for that since apparently he's the one that moved it in the sc2 forums!
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
Same thing applies to broodwar fans
Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down.
Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2
You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread)
The main premise of the OP seems to be statistical. forGG losing two series does not invalidate it. It just cools some heads. It is not like GSL champions never lost a series. Seeing as SC2 is quite volatile now(maybe permanently) only the statistical argument makes sense. forGG played well and premise of the OP can be invalidated/supported only by bigger number of high level BW pros switching and how the situation looks about 6-12 months after that. If they statistically dominate the game then OP was right, if not he was wrong.
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
Same thing applies to broodwar fans
Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down.
Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2
You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread)
Strategy wise, it remains to be seen.
Most of the need for better mechanics in BW comes from the game being broken on a fundamental engine-based level - if the AI wasn't a crapshoot etc. BW wouldn't be anywhere near as complex mechanically. I'd rather play a game that works than one that gimps the player.
Agreed, I hate when people use bw's outdated and broken interface as a crutch to say it takes more skill. It doesn't take more skill. It takes more rote practice and forces you to become a practice robot to overcome it, so you're on par with the other practice robots. It's an inefficient use of skill but a necessary one in other to compete with others at the highest level.
I'd rather take real skill like strategy, decision making, etc as the basis for true skill evaluation over who can master the broken interface the best with hours of rote and mundane practice.
You can't say that sc2 is better than BW just because you like it more.
That is exactly why you can say something is better.
"Better" is a term of opinion. Just because I think something is better doesn't mean you think the same.
You can argue that you can't say something is harder or more balanced cause you say so but you can absolutely say something is better then something else because you like it more.
You can, for example, say that sc2 is better than broodwar. That is your opinion and you're obviously allowed to have one. At the same time though, you can't run in the broodwar forums or quote broodwar fans and start arguing about how much better sc2 is and that broodwar is outdated.
Same thing applies to broodwar fans
Yet here we are in a thread on the sc2 forums saying how the SC2 pros are all terrible compared to BW promand how the game is a let down.
Actually the premise of this thread was not that SC2 was a terrible game, but rather the players were. So it's not really shitting on SC2 in that context. Insulting Nestea does not mean you are insulting SC2
You can't deny though that SC2 is a step down mechanically from BW. (which was a big point of this thread)
Strategy wise, it remains to be seen.
Most of the need for better mechanics in BW comes from the game being broken on a fundamental engine-based level - if the AI wasn't a crapshoot etc. BW wouldn't be anywhere near as complex mechanically. I'd rather play a game that works than one that gimps the player.
Err, are you to something like Dragoon vs ramps? In which case yeah you're correct. (Although it does make for hilarious/heart breaking situations.)
However something like 12 units per group compared to an unlimited number is not a broken mechanic, it is just a different mechanic. And one certainly takes more skill to utilize than the other
On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote: BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves.
I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better.
On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote: BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves.
I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better.
what makes you think MVP is not putting in equal effort as BW pros?
On January 11 2012 05:55 blubbdavid wrote: BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves.
I think it's rather about seeing players like MVP being so dominant without even putting the effort he would have been putting as mid-tier BW progamer. Basically many of these players are taking it easy in SC2, compared to what they had to do before, and still winning a lot. It's a little sad, MVP could actually become much better RTS player, if he was pressed to become better.
you're ridiculous. Do you live in the IM team house and see him slacking off watching TV? Where did you get the idea that he doesn't deserve his current standing?
I don't get why people keep bringing up MVP in his broodwar days and use it as some proof that he is average. When people make these kind of statements, you're implying either sc2 and sc1 is the exact same game, or that people can't change and only the game changes.
Newsflash, people changes and gets better all the time, some faster than others. Unless you believes we're all robots with set conditions and improves linearly.
Really? BW is dying? o_O Christ I haven't payed much attention to Korea I haven't looked at a lot of threads recently, but what I heard just like a month ago that it was still vastly more popular than SC2, which is not even a top 10 game in Korean PCBangs :O
My impression was that there was much more money in Korean BW than SC2. Isn't the only reason that Gom has SC2 leagues is because the BW pros won't play in their BW leagues?
EPT
