EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 155
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LeatherGracket
Sweden52 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
Trolls trolling trolls. With BW guys doing the trolling and Sc2 guys trying to troll but most of them who arent trying to troll are being eaten by trolls. Opinions are fine but Elitism from both sides won't get you anywhere. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
On May 14 2011 08:12 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever. He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing? | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
I don't get it. This is supposed to be a controversial thread by any means? The OP makes a completely obvious conclusion, that everyone should know, and a conclusion that is also irrelevant right now. The only reason it gets this many pages is because the broodwar fanboys thinks the OP is a hammer in their war against sc2, and the sc2 fanboys goes defensive hearing that. Basically, whats been said is that the sc2 pro scene is not as strong as the massively older broodwar pro scene, and the reason is mainly because the best of the best in broodwar has not switched to sc2. Are you fucking kidding me with 155 pages? What about that is not completely obvious, it would be weird if the top broodwar pro's HAD switched to sc2. Ofcourse they won't switch as long as they are making a lot of money. And no one should be expecting the sc2 community to have those players right now. But, so what? Starcraft 2 is doing AMAZING as an esport if you look at it independantly, it has grown faster than any other esport, the level of competitiveness might not be on par with broodwar but if you take present sc2 and compare it to bw or wc3 after having been out for a year, then sc2 is doing better by leaps and bounds. I don't see why sc2 fanboys should expect sc2 to be bigger than all other games this early in its life, it is fine. The foreign scene is looking great, there are huge tournaments with great production value running. I don't see how broodwar fanboys should think that there is anything to gain in wishing for the failure of sc2, nor why they should think that there actually is a failure with sc2. Why the hell does anyone care about this? Both scenes are doing great, sc2 is the strongest growing esports game in history and will be the flagship of esports globally. It will keep growing, so yeah sc2 does not have flash yet boo hoo. Everything is as they should reasonably be, things could not be any other way this early in the life of sc2. | ||
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Drock
United States305 Posts
Honestly, I don't care whether or not BW is more "competitve" than SC2 or visa versa. I rather watch an SC2 game than a BW game. Why? Because that is what got me into e-sports and it is more visually appealing. I honestly didn't now it existed outside of Korea until a couple friends turned me on to TL at launch. Am I somehow a lesser fan because I am fairly new to the scene? No, despite what some of the BW fans would have you think. SC2 is a great game to watch, as I am sure BW is/was as well. I don't really know what I am missing and I don't really care to know and I am completely ok with that. It's just another classic case of old vs new. | ||
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zzuper
Sweden5 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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furerkip
United States439 Posts
On May 14 2011 08:39 Loanshark wrote: He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing? Lol... his "data"... please look at them. Look at the way he presents his arguments. Please, I beg of you, READ his post. Don't just agree with is introduction and ignore his data as if it were right. Please tell me how something SO WRONG could possibly even have a chance of not being called sloppy? Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash. Yeah, they're good at SC:BW. They might be able to dominate the SC2 scene. But that's 3 people who are the best players in RTS history. That's like saying "Michael Jordan was so good at basketball, that no one in the current NBA can even compete with him." I mean, how are you supposed to argue that? Okay, and if you're dumb and can't understand the load of logical faults in his argument I will point them out: 1. He's stated that good BW players will beat bad BW players in SC2. The faults in this is that, he's pointed out 3 players who won the GSL and were supposedly trash in BW. Now, people with more "successful" careers in BW didn't win the GSL. This cuts his argument by the throat. 2. He's posted "data" that these SC2 pros aren't comparable to BW pros. Look up, and also, his data on the 3 GSL winners is in a random 2 year period. 3. He says SC2 players don't practice hard/ as hard as BW pros. No, he's simply not posted the evidence he has as to why he thinks so. He's stated the opinion of one random dude, who specifically stated he didn't dislike the ST way of training. More so than that, he's tried to insinuate that people who win the GSLs work hard. Why hasn't SlayerS's players won a GSL if they work so hard? And another argument to that is that he again has no evidence to point that out. He has a random quote that he obviously configured to fix it his way. 4. He's stated he interviewed IdrA while DRUNK. Does no on else see "ethos" as an issue when creating an argument? His ethics for interviewing is extremely bad. I see no reason to see him as credible, why do you find him credible? Please post real arguments, not "Because Flash, JD, and Bisu were so gosu, if they switched, they'd own the stage! BTW, they're in BW, so naturally BW is better!" Because that has so manly flaws in that reasoning. The only reason it'd ever work is with a huge buffer of assumptions. | ||
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FrostShadow
United States335 Posts
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Autotroph
United Kingdom940 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:37 FrostShadow wrote: This is a well-written article. I need to think more about this. Beat me to it. | ||
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trias_e
United States520 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:34 furerkip wrote: Lol... his "data"... please look at them. Look at the way he presents his arguments. Please, I beg of you, READ his post. Don't just agree with is introduction and ignore his data as if it were right. Please tell me how something SO WRONG could possibly even have a chance of not being called sloppy? Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash. Yeah, they're good at SC:BW. They might be able to dominate the SC2 scene. But that's 3 people who are the best players in RTS history. That's like saying "Michael Jordan was so good at basketball, that no one in the current NBA can even compete with him." I mean, how are you supposed to argue that? Okay, and if you're dumb and can't understand the load of logical faults in his argument I will point them out: 1. He's stated that good BW players will beat bad BW players in SC2. The faults in this is that, he's pointed out 3 players who won the GSL and were supposedly trash in BW. Now, people with more "successful" careers in BW didn't win the GSL. This cuts his argument by the throat. 2. He's posted "data" that these SC2 pros aren't comparable to BW pros. Look up, and also, his data on the 3 GSL winners is in a random 2 year period. 3. He says SC2 players don't practice hard/ as hard as BW pros. No, he's simply not posted the evidence he has as to why he thinks so. He's stated the opinion of one random dude, who specifically stated he didn't dislike the ST way of training. More so than that, he's tried to insinuate that people who win the GSLs work hard. Why hasn't SlayerS's players won a GSL if they work so hard? And another argument to that is that he again has no evidence to point that out. He has a random quote that he obviously configured to fix it his way. 4. He's stated he interviewed IdrA while DRUNK. Does no on else see "ethos" as an issue when creating an argument? His ethics for interviewing is extremely bad. I see no reason to see him as credible, why do you find him credible? Please post real arguments, not "Because Flash, JD, and Bisu were so gosu, if they switched, they'd own the stage! BTW, they're in BW, so naturally BW is better!" Because that has so manly flaws in that reasoning. The only reason it'd ever work is with a huge buffer of assumptions. well actually the three trash players that won gsls were of higher skill in bw than nada/boxer/july, if thats who you were referring to | ||
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Renkaoru
390 Posts
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Namu
United States826 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:46 Legatus Lanius wrote: well actually the three trash players that won gsls were of higher skill in bw than nada/boxer/july, if thats who you were referring to that's a very very bold statement to make, especially without anything backing you up | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
InControl: The main cause of BW's Korean dominance was that KeSPA ran a sweatshop. Koreans are now going too far the other way because they're free to do as they want and that's new to them. Foreigners are taking SC2 much more seriously than BW, because there's a ton of money in the foreign SC2 scene. There's no guarantee that Flash'd do well in SC2, to the extent that people are saying Idra: MC, Fruitdealer, and Nestea were much better in BW than the article claims. All the other crappy BW players are crappy SC2 players, so that proves nothing. Koreans are only "slacking off" compared to the slave labor format of Brood War. Kennigit: SC2 fans are stupid children, and we should treat them as such. Tyler didn't say anything of note. | ||
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rushian
United Kingdom568 Posts
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:49 Namu wrote: that's a very very bold statement to make, especially without anything backing you up not really, i actually watched brood war | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
On May 14 2011 05:07 maybenexttime wrote: Flash has influenced the game to a much larger degree than either NaDa and July (that's coming from a big NaDa fan). If anything, it's July and NaDa that are not trend setters. And saying Flash can just perfectly execute what "the pioneers" did implies that BW hasn't changed since the times of NaDa and such, and just reeks of ignorance. T____T He personally may have but as a terran he also got to come in and build on everything that was pioneered by oov, boxer, nada etc. It is just like science in that the new groundbreakers are almost always smarter but they also have tons of giants shoulders to stand on while pioneering. | ||
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RHMVNovus
United States738 Posts
On May 14 2011 08:39 Loanshark wrote: He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing? It's trite. It's not controversial. It's Brood War acrimony. Factually accurate, but Ptolemaically so: there are no implications. There's no call to action. At all. It's BW acrimony that SC2 is getting way more attention than BW everywhere in the world aside from a small Asian peninsula. Again: so what if he's right? What should the reader do? There are no implications. He says it's not going to get better. He presents no route by which one could make it better, or how, by any means, things could get better. You're saying he's making a point. That's not accurate. At all. He's venting with no purpose. That's all. This thread is 155 pages of disroportionate ire from SC2 players that he's sniping their game without any purpose, being attacked by BW fanatics that think that A=A is somehow the most profound thing ever posted on this website (false, as evidenced by every other link on the front page, including any ads), and people like myself who, though I like both games and dislike both groups, think that the second group is out of their effing minds if they think that the OP is anything but a bitter vent that would be locked if it were anyone else posting it. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 14 2011 10:09 bigjenk wrote: He personally may have but as a terran he also got to come in and build on everything that was pioneered by oov, boxer, nada etc. It is just like science in that the new groundbreakers are almost always smarter but they also have tons of giants shoulders to stand on while pioneering. boxer pioneered when the game was new and less explored. flash pioneered when the game was older and more explored. boxer may have made the skeleton for some builds, but i am much more impressed with what flash has done, considering all things like how old the game is and how precise and adaptable his builds are | ||
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