On May 14 2011 11:33 ropumar wrote: But one thing I have to say, while many failed ex-BW doing great on SC2 may appears SC2 is way easier, the fact is that the the most defining factor in high-level play is confidence. Something those failed ex-BW cited had none at the BW scene and are now so full of cofidence they are performing better, more motivated and in reality only fullfiling their potetial they had all along hidden in a layer of insecurity and doubt during their BW carrer. I believe you are underestimating them comparing them to their old failed selfs.
I completely agree with this. In fact, I made the same point earlier in the thread. It's definitely something that the article fails to take into consideration.
On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote: terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money" which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW" ...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing?
It's trite. It's not controversial. It's Brood War acrimony. Factually accurate, but Ptolemaically so: there are no implications. There's no call to action. At all. It's BW acrimony that SC2 is getting way more attention than BW everywhere in the world aside from a small Asian peninsula.
Again: so what if he's right? What should the reader do? There are no implications. He says it's not going to get better. He presents no route by which one could make it better, or how, by any means, things could get better.
You're saying he's making a point. That's not accurate. At all. He's venting with no purpose. That's all. This thread is 155 pages of disroportionate ire from SC2 players that he's sniping their game without any purpose, being attacked by BW fanatics that think that A=A is somehow the most profound thing ever posted on this website (false, as evidenced by every other link on the front page, including any ads), and people like myself who, though I like both games and dislike both groups, think that the second group is out of their effing minds if they think that the OP is anything but a bitter vent that would be locked if it were anyone else posting it.
Yeah, no. That's not what he said at all. And what kind of moronic question is "what should the reader do?" The point is not to tell the reader what to do but just to give an assessment of the current SC2 competitive scene and give an idea of what is in store for the SC2 proscene in the near future (i.e. the potential influx of BW A-teamers who all have the raw skill and work ethics to do amazingly well in SC2).
Okay. He's not trying to move the reader to action. Got it. If that's the case, he's not trying to persuade the reader of anything, as a necessary part of persuasive rhetoric is a move to action or something that *doesn't* leave the reader with more questions than they came in with.
To be clear, this article does leave a reader with more questions than they came in with. Which is exactly what makes it pointless.
Why am I bothering to worry about any of this, one might ask. The answer is argumentation. I like good argumentation. When bad argumentation and rhetoric gets paraded as good argumentation, I get annoyed and disappointed.
It's unfortunate that no one here can sympathize, hm?
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
i do believe what i wrote, it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. i think many people at the top actually suck, and it becomes meaningless. maybe not for people fresh to SC2, but this is just how it feels from an old starcraft fan's perspective. not to name names, but did you see a certain NASL game last night where a terran gains an advantage with a bunker rush, loses his first 3 hellions to slow lings, and then said slow lings go up his improper wall, and then gets rolled? everyone makes mistakes, but never in brood war did i think so much to myself: "is this guy really a progamer?"
Clearly, you've never seen this game:
It's true that we see Protoss players (plural!) manner block their own FEs in GSLs, and MC can't seem to get his zealots in the front, so there's a long way to go before we hit that skill cap. But why does the talent have to come from Brood War? Why can't someone pull a Hyuk? San went from laughingstock (Forge FE! Oops! I built a cannon where my Nexus should be!) to round of 4, so we are seeing players shoot up in skill.You say yourself that Slayers is practicing the right way. Why can't Min or MMA be the people dominating in a few months? They're already doing pretty damn well.
What was so horribly bad about that game? His zergling micro was actually pretty good when dealing with that zealot but Pure did a good job defending it. Maybe not the best decision-making, it's possible that he would've been better off just trying to sneak into the main and kill a bunch of probes (although it looked like the probes were ready to block the ramp). Hyuk went for an aggressive opening, it didn't work out. That's all. There wasn't anything about that game that made me question if these guys are really progamers.
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see.
This article left me a little confused. Expected a controversial and entertaining read about the state of play in SC2 and instead came away with nothing new.
Comparing the stats in the way you did is a pretty common logical fallacy. Consider two players. One has an 0-3 record and the other has a 5-0 record. You from win/loss ratio alone that the 0-3 player is bad while the 5-0 player is good. Now what if the 0-3 player has only played games against Flash, Bisu and Jaedong while the 5-0 player has only played against B team scrubs? It is then harder to say who exactly is the better player. Just throwing out random statistics from different time periods is not sufficient to prove that the players are bad because there might be other factors that explain their records. What's baffling is that there is even small type at the end of the article conceding that comparing players based solely on W-L ratios might be flawed, but no analysis of these other factors is made in the main article.
A lot of the statements used as evidence is hearsay and shouldn't be used to prove the truth of what is stated. For example, just because Phil Jackson says Kobe is better than Michael Jordan doesn't mean that Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. Hearsay is used as proof throughout the article. The author points out that Fruitdealer was successful without practicing much when Fruitdealer hasn't had any significant accomplishments after his GSL victory. Idra is quoted for a statement made when he was drunk. I'm assuming IMMVP was quoted from a translation of a Korean interview but there is no source listed. Of course Min would think he practices more than other teams, but does that make his statement actually true? Oov's statement about Flash is used to show that he is the best player ever, but that doesn't mean it's true. All of statements made might be correct, but a featured article should go more in depth. Jinro's statement that Flash could dominate TvT in a week also does not prove anything.
The article is bad because the logic used to support the arguments is bad. Just comparing W-L ratios to prove current SC2 champions are bad players compared to potential future players is superficial analysis. One has to prove that the mechanics and skills that make good players in SC1 translate directly to SC2 for this argument to make sense. Using hearsay to prove the truth of the matter stated is also not valid evidence. These techniques are used throughout the article and that's why this article deserves the criticism it is getting.
On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote: terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money" which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW" ...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing?
It's trite. It's not controversial. It's Brood War acrimony. Factually accurate, but Ptolemaically so: there are no implications. There's no call to action. At all. It's BW acrimony that SC2 is getting way more attention than BW everywhere in the world aside from a small Asian peninsula.
Again: so what if he's right? What should the reader do? There are no implications. He says it's not going to get better. He presents no route by which one could make it better, or how, by any means, things could get better.
You're saying he's making a point. That's not accurate. At all. He's venting with no purpose. That's all. This thread is 155 pages of disroportionate ire from SC2 players that he's sniping their game without any purpose, being attacked by BW fanatics that think that A=A is somehow the most profound thing ever posted on this website (false, as evidenced by every other link on the front page, including any ads), and people like myself who, though I like both games and dislike both groups, think that the second group is out of their effing minds if they think that the OP is anything but a bitter vent that would be locked if it were anyone else posting it.
Yeah, no. That's not what he said at all. And what kind of moronic question is "what should the reader do?" The point is not to tell the reader what to do but just to give an assessment of the current SC2 competitive scene and give an idea of what is in store for the SC2 proscene in the near future (i.e. the potential influx of BW A-teamers who all have the raw skill and work ethics to do amazingly well in SC2).
Okay. He's not trying to move the reader to action. Got it. If that's the case, he's not trying to persuade the reader of anything, as a necessary part of persuasive rhetoric is a move to action or something that *doesn't* leave the reader with more questions than they came in with.
To be clear, this article does leave a reader with more questions than they came in with. Which is exactly what makes it pointless.
Why am I bothering to worry about any of this, one might ask. The answer is argumentation. I like good argumentation. When bad argumentation and rhetoric gets paraded as good argumentation, I get annoyed and disappointed.
It's unfortunate that no one here can sympathize, hm?
Speaking of rhetoric that's paraded as good argumentation, I suggest you go over your posts again. You haven't addressed anything in the article directly, and instead keep blathering on about the OP bitterly venting and the article being pointless because you're left with more questions than answers (which supposedly makes an article pointless) and what exactly are these questions? Again you don't say. Like I said, it's an assessment and criticism of the SC2 competitive scene. That is what it is trying to be and that is what it is.
Thank you for saying what I've been thinking these past few months: the current top players, on every team, from every race, are just awful.
Protosses like MC putting their Zealots behind their Stalkers in an engagement. Terrans losing their Ravens after casting PDD because they're on the same hotkey as everything else and just A-moved into the enemy base. Zergs doing the same thing with Infestors.
How can there be any doubt that if SC2 flopped in Korea and GSL went away, these guys wouldn't even be able to pass Courage and regain progamer status?
MVP, the only A-teamer to switch to SC2, is known for his incredible multitasking, relative to other players. That's a pretty sad fact, because the only multipronged attacks he usually does is an attack at the front along with a drop in your main. Woohoo, a player capable of 2-pronged attacks has the best multitask in the game. Lets all go watch Bisu DT harass a Zerg's main, natural, and third, while microing his Corsairs against Scourge, and also having to go back to his freaking base every 10 seconds in order to make his new probes go mine and to click on his Gateways to build stuff and rally them to the right place.
MC, MVP, and Nestea better grind out as many GSL wins as they can now, before any of the dozens of mid-level A-team BWers decide to switch over.
About the money issue, the money involved in BW is much higher. Because if 100 BW-pros switch to SC2 doesn't mean, the money involved in SC2-Tournemnts rises 100 times. SC2 is very Top-heavy, while in BW because of Proleague thats not the case. So the argument why dont the pros switch to Sc2 and earns 100k $ like MC, if its so easy to dominate, is invalid.
On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote: important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see.
There is. How does a 10% win ratio make someone look good? You chose the best 2 years of their progaming life in BW? What stops them from being good in SC2 unless we have an average for them? How do we find their medium on how they look objectively?
On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote: some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and a kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting." relax.
1) Okay, so you randomly thrown in that you interviewed while drunk and then used this to say "it's a story that was supposed to tie up the article, relax, it was made to incite you?" I see.
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
it's not intentionally designed to get reactions.
Are you seriously *********** kidding?
With that first line in bold, caps and set apart from the rest of the article, you threw fuel on the whole thing and then lit the match.
I'll buy that you "might" not have expected it to generated a couple thousand responses in like 2 days, but when you were sitting down doing all your formatting, putting in some pictures and stuff, fact and spell checking. Then looked at that first big line and somehow you didn't think that would cause a strong reaction, you are the most naive writer on the planet.
However from all the disclaimers you put in, I'd think you knew exactly what kind of reaction you might get, and right now you are just backpedaling.
I'd like to talk about the other elephant in the room.
Airplane food is terrible. But no one wants to face this. All the good food is served elsewhere so its hard to enjoy flights when I know there is better food elsewhere. Why is no one talking about this?
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
i do believe what i wrote, it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. i think many people at the top actually suck, and it becomes meaningless. maybe not for people fresh to SC2, but this is just how it feels from an old starcraft fan's perspective. not to name names, but did you see a certain NASL game last night where a terran gains an advantage with a bunker rush, loses his first 3 hellions to slow lings, and then said slow lings go up his improper wall, and then gets rolled? everyone makes mistakes, but never in brood war did i think so much to myself: "is this guy really a progamer?"
It's true that we see Protoss players (plural!) manner block their own FEs in GSLs, and MC can't seem to get his zealots in the front, so there's a long way to go before we hit that skill cap. But why does the talent have to come from Brood War? Why can't someone pull a Hyuk? San went from laughingstock (Forge FE! Oops! I built a cannon where my Nexus should be!) to round of 4, so we are seeing players shoot up in skill.You say yourself that Slayers is practicing the right way. Why can't Min or MMA be the people dominating in a few months? They're already doing pretty damn well.
What was so horribly bad about that game? His zergling micro was actually pretty good when dealing with that zealot but Pure did a good job defending it. Maybe not the best decision-making, it's possible that he would've been better off just trying to sneak into the main and kill a bunch of probes (although it looked like the probes were ready to block the ramp). Hyuk went for an aggressive opening, it didn't work out. That's all. There wasn't anything about that game that made me question if these guys are really progamers.
He could have right-clicked the Nexus and killed it.
Thanks for a good Read, the OP seems well thought out, and I am still taking it in.
Obviously, one thing which is a plain fact, is that inevitably, BW pro's will eventually leave and come to Sc2, and when they do, the flood gates will open to all sorts of great talent - and a good number of them I am sure will be quite competitive at Sc2.
Here's an FPVOD of Jaedong playing against Bisu: Jaedong FPVOD vs Bisu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlphiHAI2hw
Maybe it'll make you want to play a lil bit of bw after you've watched the awesomeness. There are many teachers/tutorials out there but Stylish is one of my favourites, here is one of his buildorder FPVODs.
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
it's not intentionally designed to get reactions.
Are you seriously *********** kidding?
With that first line in bold, caps and set apart from the rest of the article, you threw fuel on the whole thing and then lit the match.
I'll buy that you "might" not have expected it to generated a couple thousand responses in like 2 days, but when you were sitting down doing all your formatting, putting in some pictures and stuff, fact and spell checking. Then looked at that first big line and somehow you didn't think that would cause a strong reaction, you are the most naive writer on the planet.
However from all the disclaimers you put in, I'd think you knew exactly what kind of reaction you might get, and right now you are just backpedaling.
where am i backpedaling? i love the reaction anyway, a lot of people enjoyed it and if they disagreed it's something to think about. i am saying that people are attributing sinister motives for writing this article, when it's just a piece from a different perspective. let me clarify my last response: it was intentionally designed to make sure you knew exactly how i felt about all this, and thus the blunt language. to get divisive "you're a brood war elitist!!" and "you hate sc2!!" reactions was absolutely not the point.
to be fair, i agree i could have ended it more positively. as a writer i was more caught up in frustratingly poor games and hence the annoyed tone. i had hoped to excite people over the prospect of brood war players switching over, but really didn't emphasize that part well. try to see all this from where i am - whether it's sad or not, starcraft is a hobby i care about quite a bit. i actually am this distraught by what i see in various tournaments.
off topic what curse word is *********** that's a pretty long word
On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote: important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see.
There is. How does a 10% win ratio make someone look good? You chose the best 2 years of their progaming life in BW? What stops them from being good in SC2 unless we have an average for them? How do we find their medium on how they look objectively?
On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote: some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and a kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting." relax.
1) Okay, so you randomly thrown in that you interviewed while drunk and then used this to say "it's a story that was supposed to tie up the article, relax, it was made to incite you?" I see.
instead of 1-9 over what could be 10 years, it's 1-9 over only a few years when he was active (date of first game that counted towards his record to date of last game). that certainly is more accurate. i can't change the fact that he's 1-9, it's what he made it himself. he wasn't 100-9, with me just picking the loss streak. i don't understand the rest of that sentence.
second part: never said those words either. i don't see how the idra "story" can offend you so much. at worst it's just poor writing, at best... just a transition into the necessity of confidence blah blah.
On May 14 2011 13:41 aupstar wrote: You guys need to watch some BW..some good bw!
Oh please. Hyuk games are way better than friggin Jaedong. You expect Jaedong to win. He does it all the time. With Hyuk, he can win brilliantly. He can lose hilariously. He can turn into a bird and fly away. Anything at all can happen! Jaedong's just one of the best BW players of all time. How gauche.
On May 14 2011 13:41 aupstar wrote: You guys need to watch some BW..some good bw!
Oh please. Hyuk games are way better than friggin Jaedong. You expect Jaedong to win. He does it all the time. With Hyuk, he can win brilliantly. He can lose hilariously. He can turn into a bird and fly away. Anything at all can happen! Jaedong's just one of the best BW players of all time. How gauche.
FPVOD's have become scarce since youtube shut down jon747..if you can find some hyuk FPVODs where he's playing competitively (and not on one of those shows like Ilovestar) I'd be happy to watch..
On May 14 2011 13:41 aupstar wrote: You guys need to watch some BW..some good bw!
Oh please. Hyuk games are way better than friggin Jaedong. You expect Jaedong to win. He does it all the time. With Hyuk, he can win brilliantly. He can lose hilariously. He can turn into a bird and fly away. Anything at all can happen! Jaedong's just one of the best BW players of all time. How gauche.
FPVOD's have become scarce since youtube shut down jon747..if you can find some hyuk FPVODs where he's playing competitively (and not on one of those shows like Ilovestar) I'd be happy to watch..
To be honest, FPVODs don't do it for me, even in SC2. I prefer to examine the decision making then to marvel at a player's speed. Realistically, mechanics are the most important thing, but the strategery is the fun part for me.
On May 14 2011 13:41 aupstar wrote: You guys need to watch some BW..some good bw!
Oh please. Hyuk games are way better than friggin Jaedong. You expect Jaedong to win. He does it all the time. With Hyuk, he can win brilliantly. He can lose hilariously. He can turn into a bird and fly away. Anything at all can happen! Jaedong's just one of the best BW players of all time. How gauche.
FPVOD's have become scarce since youtube shut down jon747..if you can find some hyuk FPVODs where he's playing competitively (and not on one of those shows like Ilovestar) I'd be happy to watch..
To be honest, FPVODs don't do it for me, even in SC2. I prefer to examine the decision making then to marvel at a player's speed. Realistically, mechanics are the most important thing, but the strategery is the fun part for me.
I don't see what's missing then..
You can see both strategy and mechanics at the same time in FPVOD, but suit yourself.. Not saying I don't enjoy non-fpvod games but, these things really let you know what's going inside the player's head..^^
EPT
