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On May 14 2011 13:48 intrigue wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2011 13:01 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 11:08 intrigue wrote:On May 14 2011 10:58 Ribbon wrote:On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote:
Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons. yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?" important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see. the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying. some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have. But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand. it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. Are you seriously *********** kidding? With that first line in bold, caps and set apart from the rest of the article, you threw fuel on the whole thing and then lit the match. I'll buy that you "might" not have expected it to generated a couple thousand responses in like 2 days, but when you were sitting down doing all your formatting, putting in some pictures and stuff, fact and spell checking. Then looked at that first big line and somehow you didn't think that would cause a strong reaction, you are the most naive writer on the planet. However from all the disclaimers you put in, I'd think you knew exactly what kind of reaction you might get, and right now you are just backpedaling.
where am i backpedaling? i love the reaction, a lot of people enjoyed it and if they disagreed it's something to think about. i am saying that people are attributing sinister motives for writing this article, when it's just a piece from a different perspective.
let me clarify my last response: it was intentionally designed to make sure you knew exactly how i felt about all this, and thus the blunt language. to get divisive "you're a brood war elitist!!" and "you hate sc2!!" reactions was absolutely not the point. to be fair, i agree i could have ended it more positively. as a writer i was more caught up in frustratingly poor games and hence the annoyed tone. i had hoped to excite people over the prospect of brood war players switching over, but really didn't emphasize that part well. try to see all this from where i am - whether it's sad or not, starcraft is a hobby i care about quite a bit. i actually am this distraught by what i see in various tournaments. + Show Spoiler +off topic what curse word is *********** that's a pretty long word On May 14 2011 12:50 furerkip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see. There is. How does a 10% win ratio make someone look good? You chose the best 2 years of their progaming life in BW? What stops them from being good in SC2 unless we have an average for them? How do we find their medium on how they look objectively? Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:
some quick notes:
- i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and a kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting." relax. 1) Okay, so you randomly thrown in that you interviewed while drunk and then used this to say "it's a story that was supposed to tie up the article, relax, it was made to incite you?" I see. instead of 1-9 over what could be 10 years, it's 1-9 over only a few years when he was active (date of first game that counted towards his record to date of last game). that certainly is more accurate. i can't change the fact that he's 1-9, it's what he made it himself. he wasn't 100-9, with me just picking the loss streak. i don't understand the rest of that sentence. second part: never said those words either. i don't see how the idra "story" can offend you so much. at worst it's just poor writing, at best... just a transition into the necessity of confidence blah blah.
Ok so you didn't expect that by calling the entire SC2 competitive scene a farce and a cheap league would paint you as a BW elitist? I've mentioned this earlier in the thread but I'll summarise again. If you really wanted people to talk about the content then there is no reason so insult the current state of SC2.
If you want people to realise the rich heritage of BW, show the positives. Show the the amazing skills and incredible games that are part of BW history. Show the rivalries and the triumphs. BW passion is an incredible asset for both BW and SC2 but unfortunately it gets displayed as condescension which just alienates people.
You don't excite people by condemning what they are currently excited about. It is poor writing and it appears to be sanctioned by TL. Disclimer or no disclaimer.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On May 14 2011 14:34 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 13:48 intrigue wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2011 13:01 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 11:08 intrigue wrote:On May 14 2011 10:58 Ribbon wrote:On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote:
Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons. yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?" important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see. the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying. some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have. But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand. it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. Are you seriously *********** kidding? With that first line in bold, caps and set apart from the rest of the article, you threw fuel on the whole thing and then lit the match. I'll buy that you "might" not have expected it to generated a couple thousand responses in like 2 days, but when you were sitting down doing all your formatting, putting in some pictures and stuff, fact and spell checking. Then looked at that first big line and somehow you didn't think that would cause a strong reaction, you are the most naive writer on the planet. However from all the disclaimers you put in, I'd think you knew exactly what kind of reaction you might get, and right now you are just backpedaling.
where am i backpedaling? i love the reaction, a lot of people enjoyed it and if they disagreed it's something to think about. i am saying that people are attributing sinister motives for writing this article, when it's just a piece from a different perspective.
let me clarify my last response: it was intentionally designed to make sure you knew exactly how i felt about all this, and thus the blunt language. to get divisive "you're a brood war elitist!!" and "you hate sc2!!" reactions was absolutely not the point. to be fair, i agree i could have ended it more positively. as a writer i was more caught up in frustratingly poor games and hence the annoyed tone. i had hoped to excite people over the prospect of brood war players switching over, but really didn't emphasize that part well. try to see all this from where i am - whether it's sad or not, starcraft is a hobby i care about quite a bit. i actually am this distraught by what i see in various tournaments. + Show Spoiler +off topic what curse word is *********** that's a pretty long word On May 14 2011 12:50 furerkip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see. There is. How does a 10% win ratio make someone look good? You chose the best 2 years of their progaming life in BW? What stops them from being good in SC2 unless we have an average for them? How do we find their medium on how they look objectively? Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:44 intrigue wrote:
some quick notes:
- i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and a kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting." relax. 1) Okay, so you randomly thrown in that you interviewed while drunk and then used this to say "it's a story that was supposed to tie up the article, relax, it was made to incite you?" I see. instead of 1-9 over what could be 10 years, it's 1-9 over only a few years when he was active (date of first game that counted towards his record to date of last game). that certainly is more accurate. i can't change the fact that he's 1-9, it's what he made it himself. he wasn't 100-9, with me just picking the loss streak. i don't understand the rest of that sentence. second part: never said those words either. i don't see how the idra "story" can offend you so much. at worst it's just poor writing, at best... just a transition into the necessity of confidence blah blah. Ok so you didn't expect that by calling the entire SC2 competitive scene a farce and a cheap league would paint you as a BW elitist? I've mentioned this earlier in the thread but I'll summarise again. If you really wanted people to talk about the content then there is no reason so insult the current state of SC2. If you want people to realise the rich heritage of BW, show the positives. Show the the amazing skills and incredible games that are part of BW history. Show the rivalries and the triumphs. BW passion is an incredible asset for both BW and SC2 but unfortunately it gets displayed as condescension which just alienates people. You don't excite people by condemning what they are currently excited about. It is poor writing and it appears to be sanctioned by TL. Disclimer or no disclaimer.
no, i never said that, i said it wasn't the point. those comments inevitably make their way into every thread with "brood war" in it. attempts to show how good brood war was have been made before (and still get made), and the stupid responses those get contribute to the frustration i feel.
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where am i backpedaling?
Responding to the people you pissed off by rewording everything into a different tone? Some parts (like the one I quoted) practically going 180 on what's in the original post. Which is either being bipolar or backpedaling.
I've just been trying to understand over the last two days as to "why" you felt the need to write this type of article and front page it on TL.net.
You strike to me as an intelligent person, so I mean when you looked at your article, then look at TL.net and see how I dunno... Thousands of people tune in to watch SC2 matches every day and at absolutely random times, and if the amount of viewers don't dwarf the BW viewers, the number of people who currently play SC2 certainly do. You didn't think for a second that if you wanted an intelligent discussion....
"Hey! Maybe I can change the tone a little. Maybe I can start on a different note. Maybe I can name the article a little differently. Maybe I can put it elsewhere then the front page."
Yes, to someone who has followed the BW scene for years it looks strange to see Anti-team kings that are wrecking it up. However everything after that is just opinion, worst yet, opinion we probably won't be able to prove one way or another for years, if ever.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
..
This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
As I see it, you quite clearly call SC2 competition a farce and that the current competition is cheapened because the BW pros haven't moved over. How is this not BW elitism? It is clearly stating that my competition is better than yours so yours is a farce.
You wrote above that "to get divisive "you're a brood war elitist!!" and "you hate sc2!!" reactions was absolutely not the point." If so why insult SC2? Why not write the rest of the article without the sensationalist tone? It doesn't help your point and it just alienates people. I'm sorry I find it hard to take your argument seriously when you have to result to insulting people.
I understand your reasoning around practice regimes etc. But my point is that these few sentences, which you knew would cause controversy, you even state so, ruin the whole article for me.
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eh terrible article is terrible, but the opening sentence is genius,
"The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce"
really grabs your attention.
the rest of the article then goes on to explain why bw is cooler than sc2. has no real points about why the games are bad or anything. just whines about how everyone playing sc2 sucks and will never compare to the heros of bw. no real point, just an opinion piece that isnt really that well thought out.
here ill rewrite the whole article for you so the flames die off.
the top bw players havent switched over yet and when they do shit will get even better. right now im gonna stick to watching broad war because all my heros still play it.
done /thread.
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On May 14 2011 09:34 furerkip wrote:
[...]
3. He says SC2 players don't practice hard/ as hard as BW pros.
No, he's simply not posted the evidence he has as to why he thinks so. He's stated the opinion of one random dude, who specifically stated he didn't dislike the ST way of training. More so than that, he's tried to insinuate that people who win the GSLs work hard. Why hasn't SlayerS's players won a GSL if they work so hard? And another argument to that is that he again has no evidence to point that out. He has a random quote that he obviously configured to fix it his way.
[...]
Hmmm, wouldnt it be good if you can point out evidence that pros in SC2 actually practices as much/more than their BW counterparts? You got angry and vehemently disagree with his evidence and data, calling them unreliable but you can even provide a shred of information on your own, isnt it ironic? Whether you believe his evidence or not (quotes from Guemchi, MVP and some other SC2 pros), he gave you evidence.. Now if your rebuttal is to have any legitimacy, you should bring to the table a few stats/quotes of your own.
And you are seriously trying to claim that the SC2 people trains more than say...  Action (KT Rolster).. I ll substantiate this part with quotes from interviews if you would substantiate your own point as well.
Cheers 
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This is why it is indeed the elephant in the room....taboo. Angry mobs will scream BW elitist! But in the end is what Intrigue has written false? The motives of the piece are irrelevant. It is what it is.
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On May 14 2011 14:11 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 14:06 aupstar wrote:On May 14 2011 13:53 Ribbon wrote:On May 14 2011 13:41 aupstar wrote:
You guys need to watch some BW..some good bw! Oh please. Hyuk games are way better than friggin Jaedong. You expect Jaedong to win. He does it all the time. With Hyuk, he can win brilliantly. He can lose hilariously. He can turn into a bird and fly away. Anything at all can happen! Jaedong's just one of the best BW players of all time. How gauche. FPVOD's have become scarce since youtube shut down jon747..if you can find some hyuk FPVODs where he's playing competitively (and not on one of those shows like Ilovestar) I'd be happy to watch.. To be honest, FPVODs don't do it for me, even in SC2. I prefer to examine the decision making then to marvel at a player's speed. Realistically, mechanics are the most important thing, but the strategery is the fun part for me.
Hyuk is known for his hi apm during practice matches. Ive read somewhere in an interview that he can chat while playing the game.
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sick post. looking forward to the future of sc2 when they stop patching, and the true korean scene moves over.
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First of all good read. I think especially the western pros should take this elephant seriously, if they don't want to be smashed by koreans in every international SC2 event like they did in BW.
I have read the first 30 pages of responses and there are still people saying that the prediction the OP makes must not necessarily happen. I actually believe and maybe this was his point too, that this is not a prediction. It is already happening. The best players that switched from brood war ARE dominating the scene, and to challenge that this trend will continue is unreasonable imho.
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This is a dumb argument. Wish I could thumbs down it... oh face book how you've corrupted me.
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Oh man, NesTea-Inca just ended. GSL won't have a good finals until Flash and Jaedong switch over.
+ Show Spoiler +
On a serious note, I really liked the article intrigue. I had the same reaction that Tyler described in tonight's SotG. If the stakes really are going to be raised in the near future when more SC1 A-teamers switch over, it is truly time for everybody else to step up to the plate! I'm really excited to see who's up to the task.
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On May 14 2011 10:09 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:07 maybenexttime wrote:On May 14 2011 04:39 Skaggs wrote:Anyway, my point is that perhaps these players play better when the game hasn't been so heavily "mapped out" so to speak. Innovation is not so rigorously punished by rock-solid mechanics and years upon years of experience and coaching foundation. Perhaps guys like July and NaDa are better at playing a game that hasn't been thoroughly tested and analyzed. They're trend setters. Guys like Flash, on the other hand, can take the things that the pioneers do and perfect them with deadly precision. Flash has influenced the game to a much larger degree than either NaDa and July (that's coming from a big NaDa fan). If anything, it's July and NaDa that are not trend setters. And saying Flash can just perfectly execute what "the pioneers" did implies that BW hasn't changed since the times of NaDa and such, and just reeks of ignorance. T____T He personally may have but as a terran he also got to come in and build on everything that was pioneered by oov, boxer, nada etc. It is just like science in that the new groundbreakers are almost always smarter but they also have tons of giants shoulders to stand on while pioneering.
I agree, but my point was that July and NaDa didn't really pioneer much. They more or less just popularized what other people pioneered (NaDa didn't invent SK Terran nor macro play, while July didn't discover Muta stacking/micro and he also had a very unique style that no one really replicated either).
On the other hand, people like oov, BoxeR and Flash are true geniuses, who have changed the way BW is played.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
k well you guys can read what i've posted, or you can continue to put words in my mouth and be offended. i only meant to post in here to address idra's sotg comments but thought it'd be nice to make a few replies. at any rate, your admissions that you've thought about what has been written gratifies me, that was the ultimate intent.
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On May 14 2011 15:10 LeSioN wrote:
"The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce"
really grabs your attention.
the rest of the article then goes on to explain why bw is cooler than sc2. has no real points about why the games are bad or anything. just whines about how everyone playing sc2 sucks and will never compare to the heros of bw. no real point, just an opinion piece that isnt really that well thought out.
Really have to agree with this guy. The whole section on money was particularly irrelevant to the rest of the article. And the little snippets about patching and "1a deathballs." The guy is just saying that he likes BW more than SC2. He should have focused more on supporting his bolded opening line. The word "farce" requires quite a bit of support, after all. I'm pretty sure that Flash's salary doesn't have much bearing on SC2's current competition.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:Was  ThorZaIN vs  oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
No.
Thats where you lost me =X
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Great read OP, I agree 100%.
In order for SC2 to be a serious e-Sport, and not just a regular "gaming tournament" scene, the players need to start taking it seriously. Right now there's no player that seems particularly dedicated, the only thing to really seperate SC2 from Halo or Super Smash Bro tournaments is popularity. The dedication of SC2 players is nothing special when compared to Counter Strike players, for example. Basically I hear people like MC or Fruit Dealer state that they practice only a few hours per day and it really makes SC2 seem like a kiddy hobby.
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Specifically talking about MC, after I heard Idra's comments on SotG and decided to take a look:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=640&part=games&league=standard
^ Link to the career match list for MC in BW. Now, a few of those were, perhaps, matches he 'should' have won if he were a A-class or so pro, but most of them there is no shame in losing. How many A-class players today, for example, go 0-4 playing Bisu (PvP) twice and ZerO (PvZ) twice? Then add in matches against Stats and Violet, both PvP again. It's possible PvP was just his worse matchup, as it tended to be for quite a few BW players.
I'd say there are a fair number of 'top' BW pros that it is reasonable to think they could go 0-6 against this list of opponents. Beating Effort PvZ on HBR I'd have to look back at. I don't have the knowledge level to say if that is impressive or something he should have won. Perhaps he should have won the other 3, or at least 1-2 of those, against the 'lesser' opponents, but I think that, given such a short BW career, it's difficult to say for sure how good he was.
Couple days later, the article still has me thinking about these things, so it seems to have its desired result, at least on me. Just thought I'd put these thoughts out there and perhaps see if someone with a heavier history in BW (I am and was more of a casual fan) could inform me about the matches in the list, and whether my thoughts on them are completely off-base.
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I think I agree with the main point of the article, which seems to be that SC2 progaming is nowhere near the level of development that BW programing is (and therefore there is a lot more talent to come).
But, honestly? Doesn't everyone already know that? The game isn't even a YEAR old yet. There are still two whole expansions to come. The fact that the game has already caught on this much, and that it has already developed this far, is absolutely amazing. Nobody thinks that MC is the "last word" on protoss for sc2. Given that, we're still very impressed by his play.
One of the most exciting things about the game is that it still has so much more room to develop. There are still so many amazing players to come (whether they are former BW class A pros, random nobodies, hell--even WC3 players) who are both entirely devoted to the game and show levels of talent comparable to A-level BW.
Sure, we may not be entirely there yet. Sure, you can't compare MC to Bisu. But that's just because the game is new. Would it really be fair to match current BW pros like flash and jaedong against the kids who were winning tournaments the first year starcraft 1 came out (even before broodwar)? No, it wouldn't.
The phrase "elephant in the room" implies there's something controversial, so controversial that no one really wants to address it. On the contrary, the OP's article is both obvious (so obvious most people don't think about it) and totally uncontroversial in its actual points (although it's presented in a "controversial" and negative tone).
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@ Everhate
Actually it had been explained in the thread. Players practised daily in Training Houses, often upwards of 40 games a day, so they actually have a pretty large sample size of matches to judge the respective players. The fact that the players in question (MC, Nestea, etc) played so few matches over th course of 2 years means that their coaches didnt have confidence in them, and thus not sending them out.. This likely stems from a bad practice record.
Warning: GSL Grand Finals Spoiler ahead.
+ Show Spoiler + Scrub in question just 4-0ed another GSL Grand Finals.. Seem like an aweful lot of them 4-0s GFs in GSL too =/ wonder whats up w that.
@ guy above
If you think it obvious, you ll be surprised how many people actually disagree with it and/or revere those Champions as the best already.
Also its one thing to be hopeful about the future, but the facts and analysis of this article is about the present. And presently the pros arent working hard enough, is what he says.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uAMgT.jpg)
