On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote: terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money" which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW" ...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing?
Lol... his "data"... please look at them. Look at the way he presents his arguments. Please, I beg of you, READ his post. Don't just agree with is introduction and ignore his data as if it were right. Please tell me how something SO WRONG could possibly even have a chance of not being called sloppy?
Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash. Yeah, they're good at SC:BW. They might be able to dominate the SC2 scene. But that's 3 people who are the best players in RTS history. That's like saying "Michael Jordan was so good at basketball, that no one in the current NBA can even compete with him." I mean, how are you supposed to argue that?
Okay, and if you're dumb and can't understand the load of logical faults in his argument I will point them out: 1. He's stated that good BW players will beat bad BW players in SC2.
The faults in this is that, he's pointed out 3 players who won the GSL and were supposedly trash in BW. Now, people with more "successful" careers in BW didn't win the GSL. This cuts his argument by the throat.
2. He's posted "data" that these SC2 pros aren't comparable to BW pros.
Look up, and also, his data on the 3 GSL winners is in a random 2 year period.
3. He says SC2 players don't practice hard/ as hard as BW pros.
No, he's simply not posted the evidence he has as to why he thinks so. He's stated the opinion of one random dude, who specifically stated he didn't dislike the ST way of training. More so than that, he's tried to insinuate that people who win the GSLs work hard. Why hasn't SlayerS's players won a GSL if they work so hard? And another argument to that is that he again has no evidence to point that out. He has a random quote that he obviously configured to fix it his way.
4. He's stated he interviewed IdrA while DRUNK.
Does no on else see "ethos" as an issue when creating an argument? His ethics for interviewing is extremely bad. I see no reason to see him as credible, why do you find him credible? Please post real arguments, not "Because Flash, JD, and Bisu were so gosu, if they switched, they'd own the stage! BTW, they're in BW, so naturally BW is better!" Because that has so manly flaws in that reasoning. The only reason it'd ever work is with a huge buffer of assumptions.
well actually the three trash players that won gsls were of higher skill in bw than nada/boxer/july, if thats who you were referring to
that's a very very bold statement to make, especially without anything backing you up
By the end of their BW careers, Boxer/July/Nada were all worse players than MVP. So the fact that Boxer/July/Nada didn't win a GSL yet means nothing. They aren't the best BW players to switch over to SC2 (that would be MVP), although they are the greatest and most iconic BW players to switch over to SC2 (due to their past achievements and their overall influence on BW and esports). Simply put, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu are light years ahead of Boxer/July/Nada in terms of skill.
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? i was a huge cool fan (and ameba fan), watching their crazy ZvT replays on Luna - still, i would have never put them as the favorites against high level players. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. MC's disastrous games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. how is clawing your way up to Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not dominating?
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there, publicly available for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying. jp was correct in that this shouldn't have caused the shitfest it did. perhaps the tone was strong, but some of these responses are staggeringly stupid.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and a kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting." relax. - i actually really like SC2 as a game, though the level of professional play is often incredibly disappointing. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL (and team league) and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i have a few thousand games on the ladder. i am also going to columbus. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha - brood war players coming into the scene will be amazing for the game. the ominous tone is for the players currently reaping the benefits of lessened competition and not pushing themselves.
they still practise as hard, but not as slave-driven? lol okay, what sets these two apart then?
if you want to be the best, you need to put in the time. dont make excuses for people that took the soft road and bitch about people that actually want to train hard
mc was so promising that he got nicknamed flounder. yeah. fruitdealer is like 25 years old and retired from bw in 07. he's even older than july =/ the chance of him actually being any good nowadays is slim to none mvp was alright. well actually he was mostly mediocre, but he did play for the coolest bw team ever boxer/july, not very good apart from their achievements nada was somewhere around mvp's level, he played a couple of good TvTs before he retired.
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
And the second someone said something stupid, just one thing, the whole thread came unwound because it was next to so many hot buttons.
It's too bad, because your article DOES raise some good points, and I agree with a lot of it (except maybe the assumed 1:1 parity between SC1 skill and SC2 skill. There are a lot of BW players who are significantly better at BW (vs Zerg) than they are at Brood War (vs Terran), and SC2 is a different game altogether).
I kind of want to rewrite a "rebuttal" that restates all the points in a more uplifting fashion.
[QUOTE]On May 14 2011 10:49 Legatus Lanius wrote: if you want to be the best, you need to put in the time. dont make excuses for people that took the soft road and bitch about people that actually want to train hard QUOTE]
The soft road allows them to be somewhat normal.
The article seems to come off somewhat fair, after all the editing, but It still sounds unfair.
Anyway, with the relatively easy-to-use SC2 units, I think that skill and talent is going to play less of a part once the best BW players transfer. They may win, but they will fall to chance far more often. For that I'm glad.
jaedong has friends. he goes out sometimes. he works out. what more does he have to do to be 'normal?' playing a game casually isnt going to get you anywhere, not when people are going to play the game for alot longer than you are
not all of the progamers are introverted dorks. some of the teams are only mandated to having 8 hours of practise anyway - essentially a fulltime job
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
i do believe what i wrote, it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. i think many people at the top actually suck, and it becomes meaningless. maybe not for people fresh to SC2, but this is just how it feels from an old starcraft fan's perspective. not to name names, but did you see a certain NASL game last night where a terran gains an advantage with a bunker rush, loses his first 3 hellions to slow lings, and then said slow lings go up his improper wall, and then gets rolled? everyone makes mistakes, but never in brood war did i think so often to myself: "is this guy really a progamer?"
On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote: terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money" which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW" ...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
He's got his data and he's making a point. An unpopular and highly controversial and community-splitting point, but how is it sloppy writing?
It's trite. It's not controversial. It's Brood War acrimony. Factually accurate, but Ptolemaically so: there are no implications. There's no call to action. At all. It's BW acrimony that SC2 is getting way more attention than BW everywhere in the world aside from a small Asian peninsula.
Again: so what if he's right? What should the reader do? There are no implications. He says it's not going to get better. He presents no route by which one could make it better, or how, by any means, things could get better.
You're saying he's making a point. That's not accurate. At all. He's venting with no purpose. That's all. This thread is 155 pages of disroportionate ire from SC2 players that he's sniping their game without any purpose, being attacked by BW fanatics that think that A=A is somehow the most profound thing ever posted on this website (false, as evidenced by every other link on the front page, including any ads), and people like myself who, though I like both games and dislike both groups, think that the second group is out of their effing minds if they think that the OP is anything but a bitter vent that would be locked if it were anyone else posting it.
Yeah, no. That's not what he said at all. And what kind of moronic question is "what should the reader do?" The point is not to tell the reader what to do but just to give an assessment of the current SC2 competitive scene and give an idea of what is in store for the SC2 proscene in the near future (i.e. the potential influx of BW A-teamers who all have the raw skill and work ethics to do amazingly well in SC2).
On May 14 2011 10:49 Legatus Lanius wrote: mc was so promising that he got nicknamed flounder. yeah. fruitdealer is like 25 years old and retired from bw in 07. he's even older than july =/ the chance of him actually being any good nowadays is slim to none mvp was alright. well actually he was mostly mediocre, but he did play for the coolest bw team ever boxer/july, not very good apart from their achievements nada was somewhere around mvp's level, he played a couple of good TvTs before he retired.
I remember when "Hyuk" was a term Cholera used to mean "Throwing away an advantage through a single massive act of incompetence"
And then this happened:
(Interesting, he talks about Hyuk is terrible, and actually compares him to.....Zergbong, who became Nestea and is in a GSL finals in like 3 hours).
And he got into a few OSLs and was pretty good. He was my favorite player, in fact. Tied with Bisu. Looks like he petered out, sad.
And while Flash was never exactly a "joke", he used to have a reputation for being quite the cheeser back when he was a lad.
On May 14 2011 09:55 rushian wrote: Idra made some good points on SotG about this. Firstly that the players are hardly slacking - the article bases this on one quote about startale and a couple of disconnected points about MVP enjoying playing SC2 and FD leaving OGS (is it a coincidence that the most successful team in GSL has a tough training regimen?). They still train hard, just not as slave-driven as in broodwar.
Second he dissected the examples of players used in the article, that MC was considered highly promising by his team, and that fruitdealer was a really good player who quit for other reasons.
yup, i'm glad he gave more exposure to the backstory of these players. still, does being "talented" and "highly regarded" (mc and cool) somehow nullify a player's poor performances when it mattered? those games still happened, and you can watch them on youtube. regardless of reason, cool still quit early and never got in the practice time to become good. and how is making Code S, the highest tier in Korean SC2, not "dominating?"
important: the years listed behind the stats are when the progamers were most active. they are there to clarify the stats, and not make players look like they spent more time at brood war than they did. i actually added it to make them look better. there is no "skewing" of anything, and the data i'm taking "out of context" is right there for anyone to see.
the reactions from nony and inc were very gratifying.
some quick notes: - i wasn't officially interviewing idra, people just hang out after tournaments and talk about random shit around drinks. it's anecdotal and kind of tongue-in-cheek "reporting". relax. - i actually really like SC2. i have subscribed to every single season of GSL and NASL, as well as attended multiple MLGs live. i suspect this is far more than most SC2 fans criticizing me as bitter, haha
It's the subtle implications of your phrasing. The headline was attention-grabbing, but you could've made all the points, ended with something like "A lot of good Brood War players are likely to switch in August. The SC2 pro scene is improving, but they have to work a little harder if they want to survive the big influx of talent that's on the way", and a lot of people wouldn't have reacted so negatively. I wouldn't have.
But because you called the pro scene a "farce", made a big deal about how SC2 players didn't practice enough, and didn't even consider the possibility that SC2 could improve on its own (either by the current players getting better or SC2 wunderkinds showing up out of nowhere). It gave the impression that "SC2 sucks now because the players suck. The players suck because they're too lazy to practice as much as they need to. Luckily, Brood War players are just better people all-around, so they'll come save the day in a few months". It's needlessly grating, and seems almost designed to provoke a reaction. And maybe you didn't mean it, but you couldn't write a flamebait-ier article if you tried, because it was well-written enough that SC2 fans (and while I've been critical of the BW fanboy elitism, a lot of SC2 fans in this thread haven't been representing that scene well either) couldn't just ignore it out of hand.
i do believe what i wrote, it's not intentionally designed to get reactions. i think many people at the top actually suck, and it becomes meaningless. maybe not for people fresh to SC2, but this is just how it feels from an old starcraft fan's perspective. not to name names, but did you see a certain NASL game last night where a terran gains an advantage with a bunker rush, loses his first 3 hellions to slow lings, and then said slow lings go up his improper wall, and then gets rolled? everyone makes mistakes, but never in brood war did i think so much to myself: "is this guy really a progamer?"
Clearly, you've never seen this game:
It's true that we see Protoss players (plural!) manner block their own FEs in GSLs, and MC can't seem to get his zealots in the front, so there's a long way to go before we hit that skill cap. But why does the talent have to come from Brood War? Why can't someone pull a Hyuk? San went from laughingstock (Forge FE! Oops! I built a cannon where my Nexus should be!) to round of 4, so we are seeing players shoot up in skill.You say yourself that Slayers is practicing the right way. Why can't Min or MMA be the people dominating in a few months? They're already doing pretty damn well.
On May 14 2011 10:49 Legatus Lanius wrote: mc was so promising that he got nicknamed flounder. yeah. fruitdealer is like 25 years old and retired from bw in 07. he's even older than july =/ the chance of him actually being any good nowadays is slim to none mvp was alright. well actually he was mostly mediocre, but he did play for the coolest bw team ever boxer/july, not very good apart from their achievements nada was somewhere around mvp's level, he played a couple of good TvTs before he retired.
I remember when "Hyuk" was a term Cholera used to mean "Throwing away an advantage through a single massive act of incompetence"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MpHCDsxYA0 (Interesting, he talks about Hyuk is terrible, and actually compares him to.....Zergbong, who became Nestea and is in a GSL finals in like 3 hours).
On May 14 2011 10:49 Legatus Lanius wrote: mc was so promising that he got nicknamed flounder. yeah. fruitdealer is like 25 years old and retired from bw in 07. he's even older than july =/ the chance of him actually being any good nowadays is slim to none mvp was alright. well actually he was mostly mediocre, but he did play for the coolest bw team ever boxer/july, not very good apart from their achievements nada was somewhere around mvp's level, he played a couple of good TvTs before he retired.
I remember when "Hyuk" was a term Cholera used to mean "Throwing away an advantage through a single massive act of incompetence"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MpHCDsxYA0 (Interesting, he talks about Hyuk is terrible, and actually compares him to.....Zergbong, who became Nestea and is in a GSL finals in like 3 hours).
Good reading from the perspective of a casual player newcomer to the RTS scene that didn't followed or played BW. And if those legends I hear so much about are that spectacular it can only be good news when they switch over.
But beware, while many failed ex-BW doing great on SC2 make appear SC2 is easier, the fact is that the the most defining factor in high-level play is confidence. Something those failed ex-BW cited had none at the BW scene, but are now so full of confidence they are performing better, more motivated and only full-filing their potential they had all along hidden in a layer of insecurity and doubt during their BW career. I believe you are underestimating them comparing them to their old failed self.
One thing you should also not forget is the foreigners players. While in average Koreans are better because Korea gives such incentive and demands so much work ethic from their players, the world is so huge that I believe the next FLASH and JAEDONG wont be from Korea at all, and wont be them switching over. And I say that because of statistics, the bigger the pool the higher the chance you find a bigger fish, even if the tiny Korea pool is better fed.
The world is big and there is more foreigners than Koreans playing SC2 now. So don't be surprised when you see a non-korean being the one that establishes the new standard of high level play.
Oh wow, I never realized how little I knew about the starcraft brood war scene, I actually thought that when sc2 hit 90% of BW players moved, I didn't check and I knew broodwar was still happening but didn't know how much players were paid. thx a lot for this article dude
On May 14 2011 10:49 Legatus Lanius wrote: mc was so promising that he got nicknamed flounder. yeah. fruitdealer is like 25 years old and retired from bw in 07. he's even older than july =/ the chance of him actually being any good nowadays is slim to none mvp was alright. well actually he was mostly mediocre, but he did play for the coolest bw team ever boxer/july, not very good apart from their achievements nada was somewhere around mvp's level, he played a couple of good TvTs before he retired.
I remember when "Hyuk" was a term Cholera used to mean "Throwing away an advantage through a single massive act of incompetence"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MpHCDsxYA0 (Interesting, he talks about Hyuk is terrible, and actually compares him to.....Zergbong, who became Nestea and is in a GSL finals in like 3 hours).
There is one comment in the article that I think is inaccurate, or at the very doesn't give the full picture:
Money is the same reason S-class and even A-class Brood War pros don't switch.
You make it sound like everyone would switch over if they found out that they can definitely make more in SC2, which is simply not true. Why did Effort return to BW despite the fact that he needs to wait almost an entire year before he can start playing again (not to mention, restoring your skill level to where it was after being away for so long is an incredibly difficult task in BW) when switching to SC2 probably would've been a much more lucrative opportunity financially, especially considering that Effort is fully capable of dominating the SC2 scene. Reading interviews by guys like Flash and Jaedong, it's obvious that their passion and determination to be the best has very little to do with money. It's a matter of prestige more than money. Jaedong and Flash are winners, they want to prove that they're the absolute best. It is completely unlike them to just give up and let the other player gain all the glory while they're busy just trying to make as much money as possible.
It's also important to note that in S. Korea, most players just give most of their winnings to their parents anyway and don't really have the time or opportunity to do a whole lot with their winnings due to their strict routines and limited social lives. Also, it's a matter of leaving your comfort zone for something different. Many of these players have spent years living with their fellow teammate, coaches etc. For many people, it's difficult to just abandon all that just because there's the potential to make more money with some other game.
EPT
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