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A huge argument is that the insane mechanics, insane decision-making skills, and insane determination that the top BW Pros can carry over to any RTS, including SC2, would dominate whatever scene they are in - but they have no incentive to because of their salaries and lifestyles with BW.
I've played a lot of Warcraft 2, Age of Empires, Starcraft, Brood War, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2. Mechanics and decision making definitely have to be re-learned to an extent when switching games. Build orders, timings, opp. build orders and timings, specific unit micro, tactics, army composition, etc. all need to be relearned although it will come faster to someone with RTS experience. Things like work ethic, intelligence and fast mouse/keyboard talent will "transfer", but you still have to rebuild a skill set specific to the new game you're playing. That doesn't happen overnight.
Also, different games reward different aspects of talent. Like say BW pro A and B are roughly equal in ability, but A has better multitasking and macro while B has better micro and decision making. B would probably be better at Warcraft 3 than A. Both would likely be good, but it would be hard to say how good. Like Grubby is good at SC2, but not better at it than a lot of the people he was better than in WC3.
Overall I think the most important thing that can transfer is dedication and work ethic. Why did so many high level RTS players like Elky, Tillerman, etc become poker pros? The skills involved are very different. What they kept was the willingness to play/study for 10 hours a day, not give up and dedicate themselves to the game.
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On May 12 2011 21:47 Riotbot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:39 eoLithic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:36 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 12 2011 21:31 eoLithic wrote:
holy fuck?
Why can`t people just see everything in a relative perspective?
Why all these assumptions and speculations?
Starcraft 2 is a game...which is being played..competetivly. Some people win, some loose. Sit back and enjoy the game maybe? lol if you think starcraft is just a game,you're not going to last long here. Is Starcraft not a video game? Fotball is stated by some, to me more than s sport, it`s still a game, a sport. Starcraft is the a huge e-sport, still a game. What a wierd comment btw xD "you won`t last long here, lol" hillarious stuff right there. Maybe he just meant you won't last long because of how annoying you might find it to be surrounded by so many people who fanatically believe otherwise? 
I am a Starcraft fanatic(sp) as well, so I have no problem being surrounded by like-minded people.
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On May 14 2011 04:39 Skaggs wrote:
[...]
Perhaps guys like July and NaDa are better at playing a game that hasn't been thoroughly tested and analyzed. They're trend setters. Guys like Flash, on the other hand, can take the things that the pioneers do and perfect them with deadly precision.
[...]
Edit: Upon rereading i realise that you did not specifically say that Flash does not innovate. Nevertheless i do get that feeling from how you put it. But if you did not mean it that way, then just ignore the next (2) paragraph.
Guys please, nobody forces you to watch or learn about something you do not like; on the other hand if you know nothing about it, dont speak as if you do. I have seen this "BW pros now are all mechanics" kind of argument a good number of times in this thread.. But if you dont watch and understand Brood War, why speak like you do?
Now i am not a Flash fan, but he is (hardly) arguably one of the most influential Terrans ever, strategically speaking (alongside Boxer and iloveOov). Liquidpedia is a good place to start if you want to confirm this for yourself, you should, maybe you will learn some (SC) history too along the way.
I share the sentiments with some, that all these rage largely comes about due to people's insecurity about their scene's strength. Now if somebody would come along and tell me "If the top WC3/SC2/etc players were to switch to Brood War, you current champions would look like shit", i would simply LOL at them cos i know my Bisu will eat them for breakfast. So if one is confident in the strength of Zergbong/IrOn (or Nestea/MC if you would so prefer), one wouldnt have bothered to rage at all.
Now for those who agree with the OP, but have a problem since he put it a little harshly for your taste, and cant chill out. Going the great length to make sure that you are 3x more insulting just to get back at the OP isnt going to help. If you put crap in your own mouth, you dont really have the right to complain that his stinks.
Personally im boiling with the anti-SC2-boys rage myself, seeing as how i feel many of their posts in this thread is incredibly ignorant and offensive, but Bisu is playing Jaedong tmr, and i want to be able to post in LR threads :p. Plus trying to be civil always have a nice feel to it, the barbarian in me will come out another day. :x
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On May 12 2011 23:11 Umbrella wrote:
Whether or not this article is obviously right or wrong, it could have easily been rewritten without the condescending tone. It's just inciting flames even though people are claiming that it wasn't originally meant to.
As a fan of both scenes, I'm sad to see that this is in Teamliquid's front page. I don't see the constant need to prove BW's superiority over and over again.
yupp.
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On May 14 2011 04:39 Skaggs wrote:Anyway, my point is that perhaps these players play better when the game hasn't been so heavily "mapped out" so to speak. Innovation is not so rigorously punished by rock-solid mechanics and years upon years of experience and coaching foundation. Perhaps guys like July and NaDa are better at playing a game that hasn't been thoroughly tested and analyzed. They're trend setters. Guys like Flash, on the other hand, can take the things that the pioneers do and perfect them with deadly precision.
Flash has influenced the game to a much larger degree than either NaDa and July (that's coming from a big NaDa fan). If anything, it's July and NaDa that are not trend setters.
And saying Flash can just perfectly execute what "the pioneers" did implies that BW hasn't changed since the times of NaDa and such, and just reeks of ignorance. T____T
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nice write-up and u damn right! :D
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I agree with intrigue, fuck TSL3
...not?
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terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money"
which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW"
...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
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On May 14 2011 02:03 Dont-Panic wrote:So I'm done reading 152 sites of angry comments from both sides. I want to start with the list of discussions which could have emerged from this topic: - How can Starcraft 2 Players improve their training. Is there a need for the BW-style of training or can the players profit from a little more freedom?
- How is the game going to evolve if more and more experienced RTS-players switch over. How will the quality of the games change and so on?
- Will there be the same amount of money evolved in Sc2 as it is in BW or even more and how does this work together with point 2)?
- How will the general quality of the games improve as the game developes?
The reason why these discussions didn't evolve is, because of the elitist attitude and the condecending tone in the OP. There are a lot of valid arguments in it, but the noteworthy points of could have been stated without insulting the Sc2 scene. And I guarantee most people would not have found the stats and your opinion on players, not nearly being at the top of the skill ceiling, insulting, if it would have been expressed in a respectful manner. With a post like this you motivate people to write bad posts like "you good-for-nothing Sc2 youngsters don't know anything" and "I don't give a shit about that Flash guy I'm only interested in Sc2". A good editorial is about creating discussion, but most importantly creating good discussion and this is where this article fails and I don't see any reason why this wasn't predictable beforehand.
Yeah... Although actually a lot of the arguments in it were not valid, in my opinion. I agree with the conclusion that SC2 is not yet on the level of BW (I consider it obvious), but I found the arguments terrible. "Some guy said the Startale House had a less strict/structured practice style than Woongjin Stars, therefore all SC2 pro houses are bad about practicing" [obv. paraphrasing] is a terrible argument. "Fruitdealer likes a free/self-directed practice environment, therefore an SC2 player can become a GSL champion without even training hard" [paraphrasing again] is a terrible argument. I could go on, but I've already made all these points. No one paid them any heed. They just keep saying "you guys bashing the article have probably never watched BW" and making the straw man assumption that we don't like the article because we think BW pros aren't better than SC2 pros at the moment.
Now this thread was all about Sc1 supporters, who want the Sc2 only fans to take a look at their game and their "heroes" and Sc2 fans who are pissed, because they feel like they are talked down to. I would suggest, that if you want to get people to check out Sc1 then provide them something. For example make a thread "Brood War for newcomers" list players the stories behind them, write down why the best players are the best, post links to great vods and articles summarizing games (I'm sure there is something like that). I bet that a lot of people who havn't followed BW will gladly take interest in it. From my own perspective I can say that it can be quite complicated to dive into the BW scene, if you were not around for the last 3 years. Every now and then I download some BW vods and watch them, but neither do I get the real story behind them, nor do I see the strategically genius plays, because the commentators are Korean and I don't have enough BW knowledge to know when there is a genius moment I should have captured (due to my Sc2 experience, I see some of the things like smart times to expand, people pulling off double expands or some good timings but clearly not everything). But I think it's easier to just complain about "these youngsters".
That is an excellent idea. I've tried to get into BW as an e-sport a couple times, but I always wind up giving up, because either I can't find decent stream/video quality or there is no English commentary and I don't understand the game enough to properly understand what's going on, don't know the pro-scene enough to understand the implications of a given player winning, etc. I have always been intriuged by Jaedong, Bisu and Flash though.
On the other hand the Sc2 fans who didn't check out BW should open their minds a little and just try to get at least a basic understanding of what's going on in the BW scene, as it is at least "Starcraft history" (no I'm not implying BW is dying, just didn't find a better way to express it).
This means if the 2 communities show a little bit of effort, interest and respect, it would be possible to have some really nice cross-game discussions, which are obviously hardly possible at the moment.
Eh I'd like to, but it seems so inaccessable to non-Koreans who aren't long time fans I couldn't blame anyone for not following. Also I loved the pre-battlenet Warcraft2 scene, but I wouldn't demand that anyone learn about it.
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On May 14 2011 05:01 ffreakk wrote:
I share the sentiments with some, that all these rage largely comes about due to people's insecurity about their scene's strength. Now if somebody would come along and tell me "If the top WC3/SC2/etc players were to switch
Try reading the thread a little more carefully. No one AFAIK is raging because they think the SC2 scene is as strong as the BW scene right now.
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On May 14 2011 05:32 Sky Net wrote:That is an excellent idea. I've tried to get into BW as an e-sport a couple times, but I always wind up giving up, because either I can't find decent stream/video quality or there is no English commentary and I don't understand the game enough to properly understand what's going on, don't know the pro-scene enough to understand the implications of a given player winning, etc. I have always been intriuged by Jaedong, Bisu and Flash though. Show nested quote +On the other hand the Sc2 fans who didn't check out BW should open their minds a little and just try to get at least a basic understanding of what's going on in the BW scene, as it is at least "Starcraft history" (no I'm not implying BW is dying, just didn't find a better way to express it).
This means if the 2 communities show a little bit of effort, interest and respect, it would be possible to have some really nice cross-game discussions, which are obviously hardly possible at the moment. Eh I'd like to, but it seems so inaccessable to non-Koreans who aren't long time fans I couldn't blame anyone for not following. Also I loved the pre-battlenet Warcraft2 scene, but I wouldn't demand that anyone learn about it.
I'd recommend searching youtube for a guy named NukeTheStars, who does English casts of BW games. He's pretty good. His casts aren't specifically designed to be noob-friendly, but you should be able to understand most of it easily. He's also one of the few people who chose to stick with BW instead of going to SC2 without being a holier-than-thou hipster about it all the time.
On May 14 2011 05:46 Sky Net wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:01 ffreakk wrote:
I share the sentiments with some, that all these rage largely comes about due to people's insecurity about their scene's strength. Now if somebody would come along and tell me "If the top WC3/SC2/etc players were to switch Try reading the thread a little more carefully. No one AFAIK is raging because they think the SC2 scene is as strong as the BW scene right now.
There's also the idea that SC2 can't get better on it's own. That the player's are inherently destined to be scrubs, and need a Brood War A-teamer to ride in on a white horse and save SC2 from itself.
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Very nice OP. Makes me wonder how drastically things are going to change, and when. Kinda exciting and frightening. In a good way.
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The big question for me is whether it is desirable that players like Jaedon or Flash switch and establish their beyond all dimensions training routine. I always liked foreigner tournaments and even more so when no Koreans were involved (because the chance to take even 1 game off them was ridiculously low). I realized this just now when I read about ThorZain because he is a very talented player, I guess he puts in a decent amount of time to be that good but as soon as those unhumanly players with their bulimia training routine would enter the scene, he would still be crushed unless he submits to a life without anything but strict disciplined sc2 training all day long. It's a bit like with Michael Phelphs who was not allowed to have a private life because of his sport.
So, I'm rather happy that the S Class Koreans have not entered the scene yet and that the SC2 scene is a bit more "casual" IN COMPARISON. Players with talent can shine even without training 14 hours a day. They can have a private life and they can be people among us. ThorZain had other preoccupations before playing against Kas, he did not train as much as one would have expected against such a terrible beast and still he was able to beat him. That would not happen if the level was "Jaedong vs Flash" and the former did not train as much because he had other (more imporant) stuff to do.
So yeah, I embrace the argument, which is not that big. You can see that players like Naniwa who are also very ambitious and efficient in their training routine, shine, so it comes down to that, which was the major point of the article. The SC2 scene is yet a "casual scene" in comparison to Korean BW. It is like the foreigner scene was in bw, and everybody liked the foreigner scene and was excited for TSL1 + TSL2 but nobody would have denied that if Koreans were allowed like Flash, Jaedong or Bisu, the competition would have been decided beforehand (as you can see with every WCG since forever).
Don't get the article wrong, it's really right.
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I don't like the sound of the text. There is no law of nature saying someone who is elite at SC1 is automatically elite at SC2.
And saying that Players like MC, MVP, Nestea are noobs compared to what Players like Jaedong, Flash, Bisu could do if they started SC2 is just fortune telling.
This whole debate is more about making everything about SC1 (including players) holy. That's some sort of elitism i do not like.
Apart from that i learned some facts about SC1 i did not know before (despite casually playing it since 98).
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Informative read, especially for a guy that was introduced to e-sports by sc2.. (Well.. the Jaedong vs. Bisu finals at some Cyber Game tourney was the first) I will definitely follow BW tourneys in the future.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 14 2011 05:32 Sky Net wrote:
Yeah... Although actually a lot of the arguments in it were not valid, in my opinion. I agree with the conclusion that SC2 is not yet on the level of BW (I consider it obvious), but I found the arguments terrible. "Some guy said the Startale House had a less strict/structured practice style than Woongjin Stars, therefore all SC2 pro houses are bad about practicing" [obv. paraphrasing] is a terrible argument. "Fruitdealer likes a free/self-directed practice environment, therefore an SC2 player can become a GSL champion without even training hard" [paraphrasing again] is a terrible argument. I could go on, but I've already made all these points. No one paid them any heed. They just keep saying "you guys bashing the article have probably never watched BW" and making the straw man assumption that we don't like the article because we think BW pros aren't better than SC2 pros at the moment.
In fairness, I don't think that's the argument being made. The argument is that even one such house with that kind of less-strict practice style is a bad thing--that NO house should be able to get away with that kind of practice schedule and remain competitive. Whether other houses are like that is irrelevant--I think the author believes that even Startale shouldn't be allowed to get away with a less-strict practice schedule and remain as competitive as they are.
On May 14 2011 06:14 Ribbon wrote:
There's also the idea that SC2 can't get better on it's own. That the player's are inherently destined to be scrubs, and need a Brood War A-teamer to ride in on a white horse and save SC2 from itself.
I think that it's more that Starcraft has enough exposure in Korea that most of the RTS talent has been exposed to professional Starcraft in one form or another, and the talented/hardworking ones ended up on an SC proteam. There's the possibility of undiscovered talent that somehow missed the boat on becoming a Brood War progamer, but that's probably not that common.
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On May 14 2011 06:14 Ribbon wrote:
I'd recommend searching youtube for a guy named NukeTheStars, who does English casts of BW games. He's pretty good. His casts aren't specifically designed to be noob-friendly, but you should be able to understand most of it easily. He's also one of the few people who chose to stick with BW instead of going to SC2 without being a holier-than-thou hipster about it all the time.
Thanks, will check it out.
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On May 14 2011 07:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:32 Sky Net wrote:
Yeah... Although actually a lot of the arguments in it were not valid, in my opinion. I agree with the conclusion that SC2 is not yet on the level of BW (I consider it obvious), but I found the arguments terrible. "Some guy said the Startale House had a less strict/structured practice style than Woongjin Stars, therefore all SC2 pro houses are bad about practicing" [obv. paraphrasing] is a terrible argument. "Fruitdealer likes a free/self-directed practice environment, therefore an SC2 player can become a GSL champion without even training hard" [paraphrasing again] is a terrible argument. I could go on, but I've already made all these points. No one paid them any heed. They just keep saying "you guys bashing the article have probably never watched BW" and making the straw man assumption that we don't like the article because we think BW pros aren't better than SC2 pros at the moment. In fairness, I don't think that's the argument being made. The argument is that even one such house with that kind of less-strict practice style is a bad thing--that NO house should be able to get away with that kind of practice schedule and remain competitive.
No it isn't....
Show nested quote +I couldn’t get used to the practice atmosphere at Startale. I guess I was really used to practice during my time at Woongjin. I don’t mean that Startale’s style of practicing is bad. I just prefer a more defined, even strict, practice system but at Startale, it was pretty much on your own and everyone did what they wanted to do. Yeah, he's saying that Startale's style of practicing is bad.It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is (Z)Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination.
First he takes a quote from one guy. He decides the quote is saying their practice is bad even when he explicitly says he's not sayig that (he assumes "strict" = good). Then he assumes that applies to all SC2 houses by talking about "the less structured environment of SC2 houses".
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On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote:
terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money"
which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW"
...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing.
I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
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On May 14 2011 08:12 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:29 Kanuck wrote:
terrible terrible post with no consideration of it's tone....
i think if i try to read it really carefully i can get this from it: "if flash or Jaedong switched to SC2 people would be really excited and would create a lot of hype and competition, but this wont happen because of money"
which is totally true. However, the tone says this: "SC2 is full of scrub players with no real competition, and will never have any real competition because true players play BW"
...intentional or not, this is sloppy writing. Its an insult and degradation to the majority of the Tl community.
it also insinuates that players don't improve or lose skill over time. Past performance doesnt dictate future, Its entirely possible that Nestea and MC are entering their prime... i mean could you imagine the elitism if flash switched over and didnt perform well?
I'll flat out say it: this thread is shameful and community dividing... intentional or not, it showed a major lack of respect for the players of both games.... either through ignorance or sloppy writing. I completely agree. To be honest someone should take that article down already , it has done no good whatsoever.
Meh. It's fun getting angry while the GSL is on an off day. Now it's time to watch Nestea smash Inca, bask in the glory of the MLG/GSL alliance, and wait for the Brood War A-teamers to come around, if that's going to happen. I'm sure at least 1 or 2 will utterly fail, and that'll be pretty funny.
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EPT
