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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 14 2011 00:35 Ghecko wrote: all hell will break loose when JD flash and bisu switch..if ever They won't until they start floundering in Brood War, which'll happen eventually. Same as Nada/Boxer/July. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 14 2011 00:46 Ribbon wrote: They won't until they start floundering in Brood War, which'll happen eventually. Same as Nada/Boxer/July. Ha NEVERRRRRR!!!  | ||
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WolfMother
United States61 Posts
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points. You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners? A bit of a flame bait? Intrigue pretty much threw fuel on the whole thing, lit it up, and then made sure the fire exits were locked. There might even be a little chest beating going near the end. To me, competition level is based on two things, the incentive to participate, and the number of participants. Starcraft 2 has more or less both of those growing at a ridiculous rate, so I think it's safe to say the competition level is also growing at a ridiculous rate. BW incentive isn't going to die out, at least for a while, (however the number of competitors is dwindling quite quickly, think of that for a second), so what's the point in arguing about the competition level of a game based on the history in another game and players that aren't going to be switching for some time? | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On May 14 2011 01:07 WolfMother wrote: SC2 is a blizzard RTS. The top BW players will dominate in any blizzard rts wc2, bw, wc3, sc2. They would dominate in any rts, and for that matter would probably break other rts games that are not as properly balanced as blizzard rts'. I'd like to see a bw or sc2 pro play warcraft 3 and see how they fair. It'd be hilarious to watch them lose their hero to creeps five minutes into the game, assuming they even know to make one. Warcraft 3 is a completely different style of game where heroes are over influenced to be the core of the game. A random RTS player would be completely lost on how to creep. The macro mechanics like taxed income at higher supplies are unique to wc3 as far as I'm aware, but those only matter at the highest ends of game play. Given time they could easily reach the top 200 of the game perhaps, but being #1 at game A doesn't translate to also being #1 of game B. If players could do that you'd see one player with twenty gold medals across four RTS titles which just isn't the case. | ||
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BoxersGosuGarden
Philippines155 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:27 d_so wrote: this is one of the stupider things i've ever seen posted on TL. not only because it's stupid, but because it deliberately avoids the argument first forwarded by YOU and goes tangentially to attack my character. i've decided you need to have a lesson in rhetoric, for the sake of your future. so let me help you: 1. me claiming that koreans have been better at bw is not the same as me declaring them to be permanently better. They are two fundamentally different arguments. One makes an observation, the other extrapolates. I am not doing the latter. 2. What the fuck. I don't know how you've made this supposition but attacking my character is not a sound argument. Also, whether I think that or not is irrelevant because my viewing/playing preferences are not indicative of the whole, and I make no such representative conclusions. I have stated several times that BW is more popular than SC2 IN KOREA. That is merely an observation of fact. 3. I'm not hiding in history you ASKED for the history. So let's look at your arguments, from the start. First, you make a conclusion based off your ignorance of history. Then, I call out your ignorance and you ask for proof. Then, when I show you proof you attack me and say i'm hiding behind history. Second, your idea of a perpetual "catching up" has been proven a million times over in history to be wrong. For every Apple there's myspace, for every Google there's an RCA. Finally, you deliberately change the topic to make these ridiculous questions to me that have no salience to the topic at hand. So you are denying it. I have nothing more to say. | ||
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nogger1
Sweden2 Posts
This would never been written if the US players were dominating sc2. What a lame artical, just really offensive and stupid imo. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:24 Euronyme wrote: It might very well be so, but then again Flash might never switch to SC2, and calling every SC2 player bad because they were bad at BW isn't really nice or constructive. Especially choosing the time of a TSL finals and go out with a long as thread about why every SC2 player sucks, and there will be better players eventually is kind of a cock block for the fans. That's all. Also it's kind of captain obvious at work, because there will always be better people for every sport / job / general task in the future, that's just how things work. Every sport has evolved. If you compare a 1930s runner to Bolt, you can be damn sure that Bolt's better. However, calling Bolt, and the current sprinter scene a farce because there will be better runners in the future.. I dunno I don't really see the point. Yeah, you really don't because you don't understand the argument. A good analogy would be NHL and World Cups in ice hockey. Generally the best don't play in the World Cups and that quite frankly makes them less exciting than they could be. I still enjoy them but everybody knows that winning the World Cup does not mean that much. Of course the current champion will get pissed off when people point this out, but too bad, it's a fact. It is entirely different thing to say that NHL now is a farce because in the future there will be better players. Players of that caliber do not exist yet. The Elephant in the Room is that such players do exist and they just are not taking part. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points. You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners? I think it's important to observe why the critical importance is focused on the South Korean gaming scene. Many of the people posting here are probably far too young as competitive RTS-ers to remember the BroodWar craze in America. It was a phenomenon. Huge numbers of kids were playing it instead of schoolwork, parents were getting concerned, there were college starleagues and teams, and all kindsa crazy shit. But it wasn't something that lasted forever, and the craze did in fact die down. South Korea has been identified as an environment where such a thing becomes established, and stabilises after the madness of a hysterical amateur bubble. It transcends being really thought of as a computer game, in any normal sense whatsoever, whereas elsewhere it can be viewed as somewhat transient and replaceable for many. That's why the emphasis is on the S Korean players. Because in that culture, this thing can become a part of actual every-day society. Elsewhere, it has been shown to pass with time, as people's attention is diverted. I also think a lot of pro BW players will be aware of this. They are not professional gamers like others- they are actually professional BroodWar players. It is a very important distinction. | ||
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Dont-Panic
Germany567 Posts
The reason why these discussions didn't evolve is, because of the elitist attitude and the condecending tone in the OP. There are a lot of valid arguments in it, but the noteworthy points of could have been stated without insulting the Sc2 scene. And I guarantee most people would not have found the stats and your opinion on players, not nearly being at the top of the skill ceiling, insulting, if it would have been expressed in a respectful manner. With a post like this you motivate people to write bad posts like "you good-for-nothing Sc2 youngsters don't know anything" and "I don't give a shit about that Flash guy I'm only interested in Sc2". A good editorial is about creating discussion, but most importantly creating good discussion and this is where this article fails and I don't see any reason why this wasn't predictable beforehand. And defending the manner, in which the article is written with "it's just an opinion" is not valid at all. If I tell someone that he is a hypocrite then this is my opinion, yet I can imaging some people would find this comment offensive. Now this thread was all about Sc1 supporters, who want the Sc2 only fans to take a look at their game and their "heroes" and Sc2 fans who are pissed, because they feel like they are talked down to. I would suggest, that if you want to get people to check out Sc1 then provide them something. For example make a thread "Brood War for newcomers" list players the stories behind them, write down why the best players are the best, post links to great vods and articles summarizing games (I'm sure there is something like that). I bet that a lot of people who havn't followed BW will gladly take interest in it. From my own perspective I can say that it can be quite complicated to dive into the BW scene, if you were not around for the last 3 years. Every now and then I download some BW vods and watch them, but neither do I get the real story behind them, nor do I see the strategically genius plays, because the commentators are Korean and I don't have enough BW knowledge to know when there is a genius moment I should have captured (due to my Sc2 experience, I see some of the things like smart times to expand, people pulling off double expands or some good timings but clearly not everything). But I think it's easier to just complain about "these youngsters". On the other hand the Sc2 fans who didn't check out BW should open their minds a little and just try to get at least a basic understanding of what's going on in the BW scene, as it is at least "Starcraft history" (no I'm not implying BW is dying, just didn't find a better way to express it). This means if the 2 communities show a little bit of effort, interest and respect, it would be possible to have some really nice cross-game discussions, which are obviously hardly possible at the moment. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand? What is so hard to understand is why are you on TL. | ||
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vdale
Germany1173 Posts
I and probably most people will agree that BW games are more refined and on a higher level, but that's almost always the case if you compare older to newer games. Yes, SC2 has still a long way to go, but the way isn't to wait for BW pros to switch over. Even if the better player in BW would always be the better player in SC2 (which isn't the case), the author talks like the players can't improve and he doesn't look at other factors like for example motivation which influences the willingness to improve more than everything else. Flash and Jaedong weren't born as the best players. They were probably considered as average (but talented) players at the start. What if SC2 was released at the time? Maybe they would have switched and started to dominate SC2 and some guy on the forum would write an article about how bad the SC2 player are compared to the BW players, because the scene is dominated by some average BW pros. We shouldn't look too much at the past of the players, but focus on the present. A good example is Naniwa: Who cares about how good he was in wc3 -> he was a decent protoss in the beta, but not one of the best -> now he is probably the best foreigner. I don't like the article and I hope that the next ones on TL will be better. | ||
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Humppis
Finland52 Posts
On May 14 2011 02:09 Squeegy wrote: What is so hard to understand is why are you on TL. Care to explane what SC2 content is doing on TL forums then? If TL staff suddenly declared that their site would from now on handle only SC1 content and ignore SC2 completely, i wouldnt be visiting TL site. Thing is, theres crap ton of SC2 related content and information here. Thats why he and people such as my self visit the forums. Do you still have trouble understanding this, or should i just declare you a troll? | ||
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StartAgain
Japan52 Posts
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand? Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand? Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place. | ||
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Zekareisoujin
Vietnam4 Posts
On May 14 2011 01:19 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'd like to see a bw or sc2 pro play warcraft 3 and see how they fair. It'd be hilarious to watch them lose their hero to creeps five minutes into the game, assuming they even know to make one. Warcraft 3 is a completely different style of game where heroes are over influenced to be the core of the game. A random RTS player would be completely lost on how to creep. The macro mechanics like taxed income at higher supplies are unique to wc3 as far as I'm aware, but those only matter at the highest ends of game play. Given time they could easily reach the top 200 of the game perhaps, but being #1 at game A doesn't translate to also being #1 of game B. If players could do that you'd see one player with twenty gold medals across four RTS titles which just isn't the case. Uhm, to be honest, unless you're really stupid, no one would actually screw up that bad like you described. If a PRO gamer (let me remind you, they're paid to play) were to switch to some other games, they would at least do some research on the game, or at least try to know how to play the game before anything. Anyway, did you even realize that that post is a troll? Because US havent been performing well i sc2 you want to say that the rest of the world except the koreans suck. This would never been written if the US players were dominating sc2. What a lame artical, just really offensive and stupid imo. And you sir, please stop trolling, unless you fail to understand the article, which shows that your comprehension skill sucks. The article mentioned nothing of the sort, OP merely states the difference between SC2 players and BW players. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
On May 14 2011 02:43 StartAgain wrote: Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand? Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place. actually i am here for the great sc2 content, not articles trashing on the competition in a game i like to play/spectate. its people like me who are boosting the viewership of the site and the streams in general, not the other way around. how many bw newcomers make their way here? probably 1/100 of the sc2 folks. if this site were to continue being succesful it would absolutely have to change with the times. i saw my favorite esports site fall apart(gotfrag) when cs 1.6 players refused to switch to source and support it. wouldnt want you guys to make the same mistake. | ||
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Felony
United States131 Posts
On May 14 2011 02:43 StartAgain wrote: Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand? Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place. The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW. Edit: I know for some of you this is hard to stomach, but your beloved TL.net has evolved and is evolving much like SC2. I feel sorry for those of you who are stuck in the BW days. | ||
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StartAgain
Japan52 Posts
its people like me who are boosting the viewership of the site and the streams in general, not the other way around. There is no doubt that SC2's release increased the TL.net's traffic. However, there are still many people who come for the BW content, so please stop talking like no one does anymore. BW newcomers are hard to come by, but over the past few months there have been an influx of threads by people coming over from SC2 to BW. Here, I'll link you to a few threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188843 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192156 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191229 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190684 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188787 ...and many others. Search function is a very useful talent toi have. BW live games still get 1000+ views for regular events , and the numbers increase for more prestigious events like a quarterfinals/semifinals/finals of an individual league or Proleague playoff matches. These professional teams are sponsored by major Korean corporations (SK, KT, Woongjin, CJ to name a few) and players get salaries WHILE getting free housing and food. Tell me, was the CS 1.6 scene as serious as that? I don't think so. Brood War has gone through so much shit through the past year: the match fixing scandal, losing players (both retirement and switching to SC2), and the Blizzard court case. If it has survived all of that, I believe that it won't die because of SC2.  On May 14 2011 03:05 Felony wrote: The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW. I was not talking about how BW was the reason why TL.net grew exponentially... | ||
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Zekareisoujin
Vietnam4 Posts
On May 14 2011 03:05 Felony wrote: The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW. So you're saying TL expanded exponentially purely because of SC2 (since in TL it's either SC2 or BW)? Please back up your "exponential growth" with evidence. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored. | ||
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