On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
Key word being originally and no the reason why I am on this site is for SC2 not BW related content or streams.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW.
Exponentially? Evidence please. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored.
Look at most of the current users on TL(mainly on the SC2 portion of the site), a large majority of them have their accounts registered after 2010, or more specifically at the release of SC2. It's not just "baseless conjecture" it's a well known fact.
Edit: I know for some of you this is hard to stomach, but your beloved TL.net has evolved and is evolving much like SC2. I feel sorry for those of you who are stuck in the BW days.
Unnecessary and uncalled for. There's no need to feel sorry though since BW still produces great games on a daily basis =) That's all I need.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW.
So you're saying TL expanded exponentially purely because of SC2 (since in TL it's either SC2 or BW)? Please back up your "exponential growth" with evidence. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored.
So you think that BW is still bringing in new users to this site? It certainly would seem to me that a game being out 13 years or however long BW has been out, its customer base would have found this site a lot sooner rather than later. I found this site within 3 months of having a SC2 beta key.
We could find out the growth of TL.net if an appropriate person would give us the numbers of registered users prior to SC2 beta and as of now. Doubtful this will happen, but here's to hoping.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
actually i am here for the great sc2 content, not articles trashing on the competition in a game i like to play/spectate. its people like me who are boosting the viewership of the site and the streams in general, not the other way around. how many bw newcomers make their way here? probably 1/100 of the sc2 folks. if this site were to continue being succesful it would absolutely have to change with the times. i saw my favorite esports site fall apart(gotfrag) when cs 1.6 players refused to switch to source and support it. wouldnt want you guys to make the same mistake.
This site isn't a commercial money-making site. And increasing the viewership isn't always so positive since most of the new members are high school/college students who are still pretty immature. It's like reading TL back in 2002/03 when many of the veterans and even some of the mods were that young. The posting quality was quite terrible.
This is certainly an interesting post, and the more I think about it the more I kind of understand the tone of the OP. It's kind of... spiteful.
For SC2 fans: try to imagine, for a moment, that Starcraft 3 suddenly comes out. Forget about that timing making no sense and just think about if, say, the current SC2 scene kept going for the most part because some of us fans didn't want to switch to SC3. Now, lets imagine SlayerS_YugiOh (yes, I deliberately picked the gayest name in the entire GSL) was just dominating in SC3. So much so that we were seeing posts by people toting him as the "God of Zerg". We'd be having the same reaction the OP is. "Are you KIDDING me?! SlayerS_YugiOh was TERRIBLE in Wings of Liberty. The only reason he's doing well is because guys like NesTea and LosirA are still playing SC2." But that's the situation we're in. But honestly, it doesn't matter... the release of Starcraft 2 has helped the e-sports scene (at least internationally) immensely and that can only be good. If and when some of the top Brood War pro's decide to switch over, we won't forget how good the current "Elite Four" (MC, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing) were - there will just be a new class of players for us to root for. I guess, in closing, my message to the OP and to anyone that feels the same way he does is this: You can have your Brood War scene for as long as you want, but let us have our Wings of Liberty scene. Our great players are great at Starcraft 2, and it's irrelevant to us how good they were or weren't at Brood War. ...and lets try to remember that "bad" is very relative. MC may not have been Bisu or Reach, but he was still in the top 0.1% of the entire world in skill.
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points.
You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners?
It's just a part of the StarCraft culture - it is an extension of the Korean SC scene. If you are not a Korean player, to them, you are a foreigner. Kind of stereotypical in my opinion, but it makes sense since the differences between a Korean Pro vs. a Non-Korean in BW is so insanely large.
Why do you think Teamliquid time on the top right of your screen and the calendar are in Korean Standard Time? Where did the word "gosu" from gosugamers and gosucoaching came from? What about the words "manner" and "cheese"? It's part of Korean SC culture.
In response to the OP: It will take many years where the most dominating foreigners like the Grrrrrs and the Elkys for SC2 (these equivalents still have not showed up in the SC2 scene yet, in my opinion) will be long gone and be completely replaced by elite Korean pros, with the JD and Flash equivalents for SC2 sitting at the top.
This is not to say that foreigners have no shot against Koreans. NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that IF and/or WHEN the Koreans decide to fully embrace SC2 THEN the foreigners will fade out as elite, competitive players. But that hinges on ONE thing:
1.) Will SC2 ever replace BW in Korea?
If the statement holds true, how long will it take for Koreans to completely dominate the scene? In how many years?
In my honest opinion, I don't think the first statement will come true at all. I think both games will fade out in Korea and be replaced by a completely different RTS , maybe even made by a Korean company instead of Blizzard (comparable to Koreans watching professional Sudden Attack, a Korean FPS equivalent to Counter-Strike, vs. watching Counter-Strike). But this is just speculation, since we haven't seen HotS, LotV, and all the patches to flesh the game out.
I think knowing that the top Kespa-licensed BW pros are sticking to BW is both a blessing and a curse for SC2.
Blessing in that it gives the non-Korean scene to develop leaps and bounds.
Curse knowing that e-sports fans could be watching the greatest SC2 players to never actually play the game.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW.
So you're saying TL expanded exponentially purely because of SC2 (since in TL it's either SC2 or BW)? Please back up your "exponential growth" with evidence. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored.
And you have these numbers...? Should we ignore you as well?
What other major things have happened recently aside from release of SC2? If there is spike in TL viewers at 2010 and 2011 you can most certainly credit it for SC2, not for SC:BW. Ofcourse, words like "purely" are easy to twist into all kinds of meanings, but id quess that most of the new people coming 2010 did come because of SC2.
On May 14 2011 03:32 stratmatt wrote: if sc3 came out, id switch to sc3. i enjoy new games and new offerings from talented developers.
Haha, that would be an awesome timeline, too. Time between SC1 release and SC2 release = 13 years Time between SC2 release and SC3 release = ~1 year WTF?
On May 14 2011 03:28 Skaggs wrote: This is certainly an interesting post, and the more I think about it the more I kind of understand the tone of the OP. It's kind of... spiteful.
For SC2 fans: try to imagine, for a moment, that Starcraft 3 suddenly comes out. Forget about that timing making no sense and just think about if, say, the current SC2 scene kept going for the most part because some of us fans didn't want to switch to SC3. Now, lets imagine SlayerS_YugiOh (yes, I deliberately picked the gayest name in the entire GSL) was just dominating in SC3. So much so that we were seeing posts by people toting him as the "God of Zerg". We'd be having the same reaction the OP is. "Are you KIDDING me?! SlayerS_YugiOh was TERRIBLE in Wings of Liberty. The only reason he's doing well is because guys like NesTea and LosirA are still playing SC2." But that's the situation we're in. But honestly, it doesn't matter... the release of Starcraft 2 has helped the e-sports scene (at least internationally) immensely and that can only be good. If and when some of the top Brood War pro's decide to switch over, we won't forget how good the current "Elite Four" (MC, Mvp, NesTea, MarineKing) were - there will just be a new class of players for us to root for. I guess, in closing, my message to the OP and to anyone that feels the same way he does is this: You can have your Brood War scene for as long as you want, but let us have our Wings of Liberty scene. Our great players are great at Starcraft 2, and it's irrelevant to us how good they were or weren't at Brood War. ...and lets try to remember that "bad" is very relative. MC may not have been Bisu or Reach, but he was still in the top 0.1% of the entire world in skill.
A huge argument is that the insane mechanics, insane decision-making skills, and insane determination that the top BW Pros can carry over to any RTS, including SC2, would dominate whatever scene they are in - but they have no incentive to because of their salaries and lifestyles with BW.
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points.
You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners?
It's just a part of the StarCraft culture - it is an extension of the Korean SC scene. If you are not a Korean player, to them, you are a foreigner. Kind of stereotypical in my opinion, but it makes sense since the differences between a Korean Pro vs. a Non-Korean in BW is so insanely large.
Why do you think Teamliquid time on the top right of your screen and the calendar are in Korean Standard Time? Where did the word "gosu" from gosugamers and gosucoaching came from? What about the words "manner" and "cheese"? It's part of Korean SC culture.
In response to the OP: It will take many years where the most dominating foreigners like the Grrrrrs and the Elkys for SC2 (these equivalents still have not showed up in the SC2 scene yet, in my opinion) will be long gone and be completely replaced by elite Korean pros, with the JD and Flash equivalents for SC2 sitting at the top.
This is not to say that foreigners have no shot against Koreans. NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that IF and/or WHEN the Koreans decide to fully embrace SC2 THEN the foreigners will fade out as elite, competitive players. But that hinges on ONE thing:
1.) Will SC2 ever replace BW in Korea?
If the statement holds true, how long will it take for Koreans to completely dominate the scene? In how many years?
In my honest opinion, I don't think the first statement will come true at all. I think both games will fade out in Korea and be replaced by a completely different RTS , maybe even made by a Korean company instead of Blizzard (comparable to Koreans watching professional Sudden Attack, a Korean FPS equivalent to Counter-Strike, vs. watching Counter-Strike). But this is just speculation, since we haven't seen HotS, LotV, and all the patches to flesh the game out.
I think knowing that the top Kespa-licensed BW pros are sticking to BW is both a blessing and a curse for SC2.
Blessing in that it gives the non-Korean scene to develop leaps and bounds.
Curse knowing that e-sports fans could be watching the greatest SC2 players to never actually play the game.
I agree with parts of this post. Clearly many of the SC2 terms are Korean in origin and I don't think there's ever going to be a day when non-Korean players won't be known as "Foreigners". However, the problem in BW has always been that Korea has the infrastructure to shape champions... and internationally that just doesn't exist. I don't know that this is entirely true in SC2. It seems like the international scene for SC2 is quite big now. We have our own leagues and tournaments, our own teams, our own players, and our own gosus. Will international players ever truly be able to stand up to Korean players in SC2? I'm not sure.. BUT I don't think the skill gap was ever get as large as it was in Brood War.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW.
So you're saying TL expanded exponentially purely because of SC2 (since in TL it's either SC2 or BW)? Please back up your "exponential growth" with evidence. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored.
And you have these numbers...? Should we ignore you as well?
What other major things have happened recently aside from release of SC2? If there is spike in TL viewers at 2010 and 2011 you can most certainly credit it for SC2, not for SC:BW. Ofcourse, words like "purely" are easy to twist into all kinds of meanings, but id quess that most of the new people coming 2010 did come because of SC2.
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear enough. Or perhaps the word in bold did not mean anything to you all. Did I ever say that TL has been growing because of BW? All I did was pointing out the wrong usage of the word exponentially. And obviously I'm not trying to prove anything regarding that fact, so there's no need for my numbers, is there?
Look at most of the current users on TL(mainly on the SC2 portion of the site), a large majority of them have their accounts registered after 2010, or more specifically at the release of SC2. It's not just "baseless conjecture" it's a well known fact.
Obviously trying to prove something different altogether. I do acknowledge the fact that SC2 helps TL.net grow, but not exponentially.
Haha, that would be an awesome timeline, too. Time between SC1 release and SC2 release = 13 years Time between SC2 release and SC3 release = ~1 year WTF?
Dude, it's an assumption that serves to put yourself in BW's shoe. Don't try to nitpick it =.=.
On May 14 2011 02:04 stratmatt wrote: nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into sc2 pro scene really cares about a game from 1998 either....thats the elephants in this room. sc2 players care about players who bother to play sc2, not people who play a completely different game. what is so hard to understand?
Nobody cares about elephants, also nobody into the Brood War pro scene really cares about its "successor" from 2010 either...that's the elephants in this room. Brood War players care about players who bother to play Brood War, not people who play a completely different game. What is so hard to understand?
Are people really forgetting that Teamliquid was originally a site dedicated for professional Brood War? It's the reason why this site ever existed and why you are here in the first place.
The reason why this site has grown and expanded exponentially since 2010 isn't because of SC:BW.
So you're saying TL expanded exponentially purely because of SC2 (since in TL it's either SC2 or BW)? Please back up your "exponential growth" with evidence. Otherwise this is just a baseless conjecture and should be ignored.
And you have these numbers...? Should we ignore you as well?
What other major things have happened recently aside from release of SC2? If there is spike in TL viewers at 2010 and 2011 you can most certainly credit it for SC2, not for SC:BW. Ofcourse, words like "purely" are easy to twist into all kinds of meanings, but id quess that most of the new people coming 2010 did come because of SC2.
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear enough. Or perhaps the word in bold did not mean anything to you all. Did I ever say that TL has been growing because of BW? All I did was pointing out the wrong usage of the word exponentially. And obviously I'm not trying to prove anything regarding that fact, so there's no need for my numbers, is there?
Look at most of the current users on TL(mainly on the SC2 portion of the site), a large majority of them have their accounts registered after 2010, or more specifically at the release of SC2. It's not just "baseless conjecture" it's a well known fact.
Obviously trying to prove something different altogether. I do acknowledge the fact that SC2 helps TL.net grow, but not exponentially.
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points.
You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners?
It's just a part of the StarCraft culture - it is an extension of the Korean SC scene. If you are not a Korean player, to them, you are a foreigner. Kind of stereotypical in my opinion, but it makes sense since the differences between a Korean Pro vs. a Non-Korean in BW is so insanely large.
Why do you think Teamliquid time on the top right of your screen and the calendar are in Korean Standard Time? Where did the word "gosu" from gosugamers and gosucoaching came from? What about the words "manner" and "cheese"? It's part of Korean SC culture.
In response to the OP: It will take many years where the most dominating foreigners like the Grrrrrs and the Elkys for SC2 (these equivalents still have not showed up in the SC2 scene yet, in my opinion) will be long gone and be completely replaced by elite Korean pros, with the JD and Flash equivalents for SC2 sitting at the top.
This is not to say that foreigners have no shot against Koreans. NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that IF and/or WHEN the Koreans decide to fully embrace SC2 THEN the foreigners will fade out as elite, competitive players. But that hinges on ONE thing:
1.) Will SC2 ever replace BW in Korea?
If the statement holds true, how long will it take for Koreans to completely dominate the scene? In how many years?
In my honest opinion, I don't think the first statement will come true at all. I think both games will fade out in Korea and be replaced by a completely different RTS , maybe even made by a Korean company instead of Blizzard (comparable to Koreans watching professional Sudden Attack, a Korean FPS equivalent to Counter-Strike, vs. watching Counter-Strike). But this is just speculation, since we haven't seen HotS, LotV, and all the patches to flesh the game out.
I think knowing that the top Kespa-licensed BW pros are sticking to BW is both a blessing and a curse for SC2.
Blessing in that it gives the non-Korean scene to develop leaps and bounds.
Curse knowing that e-sports fans could be watching the greatest SC2 players to never actually play the game.
I agree with parts of this post. Clearly many of the SC2 terms are Korean in origin and I don't think there's ever going to be a day when non-Korean players won't be known as "Foreigners". However, the problem in BW has always been that Korea has the infrastructure to shape champions... and internationally that just doesn't exist. I don't know that this is entirely true in SC2. It seems like the international scene for SC2 is quite big now. We have our own leagues and tournaments, our own teams, our own players, and our own gosus. Will international players ever truly be able to stand up to Korean players in SC2? I'm not sure.. BUT I don't think the skill gap was ever get as large as it was in Brood War.
I absolutely agree with you that international scene for SC2 is doing a great job in getting a support system for International Pros with team houses, salaries, sponsorships, etc.
But a huge argument is that it's disheartening as a fan to know that any current Brood War A-team that switches over to SC2 would absolutely wreck the scene.
I ignore this when I'm actually watching the GSL, but if you actually sit down and reflect... How fucking scary is that?
Think about it: instead of 1 IMMVP, try 10 MVP's. A SC2 team with 10 players with MVP's caliber, quite possibly with higher skills!
I also agree the skill gap between Koreans vs foreigners will never get as large as it was in Brood War, but if they decided to switch, the skill gap will still be large enough for foreigners to never really compete with them because of their approach to the RTS game.
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points.
You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners?
It's just a part of the StarCraft culture - it is an extension of the Korean SC scene. If you are not a Korean player, to them, you are a foreigner. Kind of stereotypical in my opinion, but it makes sense since the differences between a Korean Pro vs. a Non-Korean in BW is so insanely large.
Why do you think Teamliquid time on the top right of your screen and the calendar are in Korean Standard Time? Where did the word "gosu" from gosugamers and gosucoaching came from? What about the words "manner" and "cheese"? It's part of Korean SC culture.
In response to the OP: It will take many years where the most dominating foreigners like the Grrrrrs and the Elkys for SC2 (these equivalents still have not showed up in the SC2 scene yet, in my opinion) will be long gone and be completely replaced by elite Korean pros, with the JD and Flash equivalents for SC2 sitting at the top.
This is not to say that foreigners have no shot against Koreans. NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that IF and/or WHEN the Koreans decide to fully embrace SC2 THEN the foreigners will fade out as elite, competitive players. But that hinges on ONE thing:
1.) Will SC2 ever replace BW in Korea?
If the statement holds true, how long will it take for Koreans to completely dominate the scene? In how many years?
In my honest opinion, I don't think the first statement will come true at all. I think both games will fade out in Korea and be replaced by a completely different RTS , maybe even made by a Korean company instead of Blizzard (comparable to Koreans watching professional Sudden Attack, a Korean FPS equivalent to Counter-Strike, vs. watching Counter-Strike). But this is just speculation, since we haven't seen HotS, LotV, and all the patches to flesh the game out.
I think knowing that the top Kespa-licensed BW pros are sticking to BW is both a blessing and a curse for SC2.
Blessing in that it gives the non-Korean scene to develop leaps and bounds.
Curse knowing that e-sports fans could be watching the greatest SC2 players to never actually play the game.
I agree with parts of this post. Clearly many of the SC2 terms are Korean in origin and I don't think there's ever going to be a day when non-Korean players won't be known as "Foreigners". However, the problem in BW has always been that Korea has the infrastructure to shape champions... and internationally that just doesn't exist. I don't know that this is entirely true in SC2. It seems like the international scene for SC2 is quite big now. We have our own leagues and tournaments, our own teams, our own players, and our own gosus. Will international players ever truly be able to stand up to Korean players in SC2? I'm not sure.. BUT I don't think the skill gap was ever get as large as it was in Brood War.
I absolutely agree with you that international scene for SC2 is doing a great job in getting a support system for International Pros with team houses, salaries, sponsorships, etc.
But a huge argument is that it's disheartening as a fan to know that any current Brood War A-team that switches over to SC2 would absolutely wreck the scene.
I ignore this when I'm actually watching the GSL, but if you actually sit down and reflect... How fucking scary is that?
Think about it: instead of 1 IMMVP, try 10 MVP's. A SC2 team with 10 players with MVP's caliber, quite possibly with higher skills!
I also agree the skill gap between Koreans vs foreigners will never get as large as it was in Brood War, but if they decided to switch, the skill gap will still be large enough for foreigners to never really compete with them because of their approach to the RTS game.
yeah that would actually be awesome because they would be playing a game i am interested in! if flash switched over and 'wrecked' the scene id be all for it, but he hasnt so who cares? the only people who care are those who want to rub it in the face of sc2 players, like intrigue, but what he doesnt realize is we welcome the competition and will enjoy it much more than he will when it gets here because wont feel that our 'special' game has been abondoned.
On May 13 2011 23:54 mansa wrote: Nice read! Though abit flame bait I think it brings valid points.
You know guys one thing I notice one thing why should we be called the foreigners if the one who created the game were a foreigners?
It's just a part of the StarCraft culture - it is an extension of the Korean SC scene. If you are not a Korean player, to them, you are a foreigner. Kind of stereotypical in my opinion, but it makes sense since the differences between a Korean Pro vs. a Non-Korean in BW is so insanely large.
Why do you think Teamliquid time on the top right of your screen and the calendar are in Korean Standard Time? Where did the word "gosu" from gosugamers and gosucoaching came from? What about the words "manner" and "cheese"? It's part of Korean SC culture.
In response to the OP: It will take many years where the most dominating foreigners like the Grrrrrs and the Elkys for SC2 (these equivalents still have not showed up in the SC2 scene yet, in my opinion) will be long gone and be completely replaced by elite Korean pros, with the JD and Flash equivalents for SC2 sitting at the top.
This is not to say that foreigners have no shot against Koreans. NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that IF and/or WHEN the Koreans decide to fully embrace SC2 THEN the foreigners will fade out as elite, competitive players. But that hinges on ONE thing:
1.) Will SC2 ever replace BW in Korea?
If the statement holds true, how long will it take for Koreans to completely dominate the scene? In how many years?
In my honest opinion, I don't think the first statement will come true at all. I think both games will fade out in Korea and be replaced by a completely different RTS , maybe even made by a Korean company instead of Blizzard (comparable to Koreans watching professional Sudden Attack, a Korean FPS equivalent to Counter-Strike, vs. watching Counter-Strike). But this is just speculation, since we haven't seen HotS, LotV, and all the patches to flesh the game out.
I think knowing that the top Kespa-licensed BW pros are sticking to BW is both a blessing and a curse for SC2.
Blessing in that it gives the non-Korean scene to develop leaps and bounds.
Curse knowing that e-sports fans could be watching the greatest SC2 players to never actually play the game.
I agree with parts of this post. Clearly many of the SC2 terms are Korean in origin and I don't think there's ever going to be a day when non-Korean players won't be known as "Foreigners". However, the problem in BW has always been that Korea has the infrastructure to shape champions... and internationally that just doesn't exist. I don't know that this is entirely true in SC2. It seems like the international scene for SC2 is quite big now. We have our own leagues and tournaments, our own teams, our own players, and our own gosus. Will international players ever truly be able to stand up to Korean players in SC2? I'm not sure.. BUT I don't think the skill gap was ever get as large as it was in Brood War.
I absolutely agree with you that international scene for SC2 is doing a great job in getting a support system for International Pros with team houses, salaries, sponsorships, etc.
But a huge argument is that it's disheartening as a fan to know that any current Brood War A-team that switches over to SC2 would absolutely wreck the scene.
I ignore this when I'm actually watching the GSL, but if you actually sit down and reflect... How fucking scary is that?
Think about it: instead of 1 IMMVP, try 10 MVP's. A SC2 team with 10 players with MVP's caliber, quite possibly with higher skills!
I also agree the skill gap between Koreans vs foreigners will never get as large as it was in Brood War, but if they decided to switch, the skill gap will still be large enough for foreigners to never really compete with them because of their approach to the RTS game.
I'm not entirely convinced that top BW players could switch to SC2 at any moment and bust up the pro scene. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'd be quite competent. Many would probably be very good.
If we look at the 3 Brood War legends that switched (July, NaDa, BoxeR), we can kind of notice something. As the OP pointed out, their careers in BW were seriously waning when they decided to switch. But now we see NaDa and July being very much top-tier contenders. BoxeR would have to be put a tier lower than them - however, I get the feeling that he is more interested in sharing his wisdom to help develop younger talent and coaching his team than he is in individual leagues. I could be wrong, and I'm not trying to just skirt away from a fact that doesn't support my argument, it's just the feeling I get from watching him.
Anyway, my point is that perhaps these players play better when the game hasn't been so heavily "mapped out" so to speak. Innovation is not so rigorously punished by rock-solid mechanics and years upon years of experience and coaching foundation. Perhaps guys like July and NaDa are better at playing a game that hasn't been thoroughly tested and analyzed. They're trend setters. Guys like Flash, on the other hand, can take the things that the pioneers do and perfect them with deadly precision.
If you look at baseball players in the early 1900s versus baseball players now... the current players would wreck the older players. The game has just been developed past where they thrived. The scene evolves.
I don't know, that's where I see the Starcraft 2 scene versus the Brood War scene. We're looking at a new game and watching players figure it out in front of our eyes. It's very possible that guys like MC and Mvp are just better at playing in this environment than they were in the brutally streamlined Brood War environment.
EPT
