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Hey guys,
I've been playing SC2 since release, was a fairly high ranked Diamond Protoss for most of the time, haven't played a whole lot since the Master's League patch and recently I've been watching a lot of old Tasteless/Artosis commented Brood War VODs, and it looks like an absolute ton of fun. I love SC2, but I never got to play seriously in BW and I'd like to try it out.
I've recently played a few games against the computer and its actually kind of crazy how much better I am at the game than I remember being (prior to SC2), simply due to playing SC2 for that length of time and knowing things about basic macro that I just didn't before.
Ok, long-winded and pointless intro aside, I need some advice. What is the best way to go about beginning to play SC:BW in a serious way, the same way you ladder seriously in SC2? Should I get on iCCup straightaway, arm myself with a basic build order that sort of works well against all three matchups (I was thinking of 12 Nexus as Protoss, any suggestions on that front would be welcome) and just jump straight in? or should I spend some time on the "official" SC:BW servers before jumping into iCCup?
Or would it be even better to just not bother until a new iCCup season and jump in then when everyone's reset?
Would appreciate any input, and also any information on how to actually get set up on iCCup (although I'm sure there is setup guides out there so if there is, just ignore this and I'll find them on my own)
thanks
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There is no basic build order that works well against all 3 matchups. You have to watch progames and study replays to gain understanding of the 3 matchups for the race you pick.
You mention 12nexus as protoss--FE as protoss is possible in each protoss matchup, but there are unique touches to each one (forge FE in PvZ, and the followup in PvP is different than the followup in PvT--read smi.Frozen's guide to FE PvP in the TL.net strategy section)
Start iCCup NOW--once everyone is reset you'll be facing total gosus at D level who'll stomp you and it'll make things WAY harder for you than they need to be at this stage in your BW learning.
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On January 30 2011 16:07 xxpack09 wrote:
There is no basic build order that works well against all 3 matchups. You have to watch progames and study replays to gain understanding of the 3 matchups for the race you pick.
You mention 12nexus as protoss--FE as protoss is possible in each protoss matchup, but there are unique touches to each one (forge FE in PvZ, and the followup in PvP is different than the followup in PvT--read smi.Frozen's guide to FE PvP in the TL.net strategy section)
Start iCCup NOW--once everyone is reset you'll be facing total gosus at D level who'll stomp you and it'll make things WAY harder for you than they need to be at this stage in your BW learning.
Oh, absolutely, I know that ultimately I'm going to need several different build orders for each matchup, and a different style of play for each one, but I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race (similar to the way that a 4gate in Starcraft 2 is acceptably good against each race) while I get used to the interface and macro-mechanic differences in Brood War, then after 20-30 games I can start branching out and using different things.
I've read through the first few pages of the BW forum but haven't really found any "generic" Protoss builds, everything seems to have its place in a specific matchup. Is that simply due to SC:BW being such a relatively explored game compared to SC2, or is it the nature of the game different to SC2 that there isn't really a generic build order that "sort of works" against most things".
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Just as an example.
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Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated.
Learn A build order for every MU
if you are P
4 gate 2 archon PvZ
10/15 PvT
and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand
On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest
And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army.
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There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2:
1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think)
2. keep idle workers at a minimum
3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them
4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level
I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips 
Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW
That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!!  BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe
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Macro is way harder in scbw and you will battle the interface for a long time. Don't expect rising up the ICCUP ranks as fast as in sc2, you will be D forever :D
If you are really serious about this then you just need a lot of stamina and you will be fine
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go to liquipedia.net to learn the basic builds for protoss. each match up dffers from each other but PvT and PvP have slight similarity at the early stages. PvZ is however, an entirely different MU from the 2.
even though you may have been a high ranked protoss on sc2, expect to be beaten left right and centre in iccup. the skill level currently is much higher than it was before sc2 came out. there's also alot of smurfs out there so don't be too discouraged.
i would think going iccup now is a better choice since we are a few weeks into the season anf the more higher ranked guys are out of the d player pool. it would be a common thing to meet b players in the d pool when the season just resetted.
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On January 30 2011 16:13 wussleeQ wrote:There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2: 1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think) 2. keep idle workers at a minimum 3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them 4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!! BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe
This is all fantastic advice. Basically confirms what I thought, that I need to focus on my solid macro the same way you do in SC2.
Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Or do you just leave the rally at default at the base of the Nexus and get them from there?
All of the other posts above are fantastic too, thank you all so much.
I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings.
One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2.
All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
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I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race
Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup.
edit: imo you should not 2gate every game because that is not a stable strategy. also forge FE is the standard for PvZ.
I know you would like things to be simple but the hard truth is that they're not and you're just going to have to do some work and learn things if you want to improve. That is why I would recommend sticking to one matchup; you will learn a lot quicker if you are focusing on 1 matchup rather than all 3, and as a result your mechanics will improve faster.
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On January 30 2011 16:20 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup.
Actually this is a good point too, ladder in iCCup works differently to SC2, there's no automated matchmaking so you just look for custom games created with certain titles that suit the game you're looking for, correct?
If so I suppose I could just say, focus on PvZ and always look for Zergs to play against rather than joining games made by Protoss or Terran players?
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:
I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings.
2 gate is supposed to either kill you opponent early or do enough damage to tech and kill him later.
On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:
One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2.
Forge FE is the standart for ZvP if you to get in a good shape in the mid game (assuming your 2 gate gets deflected). Beware of Hydras busts. Hydras are insanely strong here.
On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
YOu are welcome
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On January 30 2011 16:22 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:20 Crunchums wrote:I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup. Actually this is a good point too, ladder in iCCup works differently to SC2, there's no automated matchmaking so you just look for custom games created with certain titles that suit the game you're looking for, correct? If so I suppose I could just say, focus on PvZ and always look for Zergs to play against rather than joining games made by Protoss or Terran players?
Yeah sure, but rather than laddering Iccup I would recommend you try and find practice partners because if you try to ladder only one matchup you will spend a lot of time trying to find games.
edit: btw the channel on iccup is "op teamliquid"
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On January 30 2011 16:14 TehForce wrote:
Macro is way harder in scbw and you will battle the interface for a long time. Don't expect rising up the ICCUP ranks as fast as in sc2, you will be D forever :D
This. And don't get discouraged of it. I used to play on PGtour and was a stable C- player after spending A LOT of time playing(bought the game when it first came out). In SC2 I got top diamond after 3 weeks where I had a lot of stuff to do at school, so I couldn't play that much. Yes, I know this can't be compared and stuff, but the point is that it might be satisfying to see yourself climbing the ladder faster in SC2, but trust me, when you get one better rank in BW, it feels thousand times as good! Just keep on playing!
Also, check Liquipedia for build orders and timings.
Welcome to BW :D
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Thanks again for all the help everyone. Please do continue posting your thoughts and opinions and anything that could help.
I have no idea if I'll stick with BW, maybe I'll play a handful of games, decide that I like the easier interface too much in SC2 and just go back to the other game, but I hope I'll have the dedication to stick with it and I believe I can, so I hope to see you all in the BW Strategy forum soon with my observations and replays.
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:13 wussleeQ wrote:There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2: 1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think) 2. keep idle workers at a minimum 3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them 4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!! BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe This is all fantastic advice. Basically confirms what I thought, that I need to focus on my solid macro the same way you do in SC2. Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Or do you just leave the rally at default at the base of the Nexus and get them from there? All of the other posts above are fantastic too, thank you all so much. I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings. One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2. All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
It doesnt really matter where you rally your workers to, if you select a bunch of workers when trying to select the one that just finished you can hold shift and click the mineral. That way the other workers wont stop mining but the new one will start.
As for builds you should probably do 2 gate goon range or 2 gate observer builds in PvP and PvT as they are extremely safe and can allow a bit of early aggression.
In PvZ the standard is forge FE. Just try and do standard Corsair/DT or a 2 gate speedlot timing attack. Do NOT try Corsair/Reaver.
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On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army.
Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of.
Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;;
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On January 30 2011 16:37 Snipinpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army. Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of. Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;;
Because 12 nexus imba..
10/15 gate just sounds more badass too
Throw me a PM if you want to watch/play a game
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On January 30 2011 17:06 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:37 Snipinpanda wrote:On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army. Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of. Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;; Because 12 nexus imba.. 10/15 gate just sounds more badass too Throw me a PM if you want to watch/play a game
Isn't that more reason to learn 12 nex?!
lol, I don't even know why I'm suggesting it, since I'm a T player >.<
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the things you need to learn first:
keep up worker production and make them mine (its very hard to learn their que timing)
keep practicing 1 build order until you know it, and when i say you gotta know the BO, you have to understand the timing and know whenever to do what. Too many new players which i have seen, having too many units idling, because of not knowing their que timing enough.
since you cannot hotkey all factories/barracks to 1 hotkey, you have to work on the macro as well, micro and macromanagement at the same time in BW is just 100times harder than in SC2, thats why most players are focusing on macro alone, and i think thats fine for you @ beginning.
i think these 3 things i mentioned should be every new players standard procedure.
As the other guys mentioned above regarding ICCUP, you will and i guarentee, you will lose 70% of your games, but practice makes you a master, so dont give up!
good luck
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10387 Posts
Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE
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