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On January 30 2011 17:46 ArvickHero wrote:
Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE
wtf even i have a hard time managing that in PvT
just go 12nex in PvT because it does you wonders. If the map is rampless, open 10/15 because that does you wonders too. 1gate obs is weak shit in PvT. FD has a pretty good probability of raping you facefront and doesnt let you expand early if you micro poorly. oh and 2fact rapes it ez so yea go 12nex ;;
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10387 Posts
On January 30 2011 19:09 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 17:46 ArvickHero wrote:
Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE wtf even i have a hard time managing that in PvT just go 12nex in PvT because it does you wonders. If the map is rampless, open 10/15 because that does you wonders too.
mehh imo 12 Nexus is something you should abuse after you learn the standard PvT build, and I don't like how 12 nex is autolose vs BBS (something kinda common on ladderrr). By learning 1 gate range-expand/range-robo-expand play and learning to micro well against any early attacks, it gives a stronger fundamental for your PvT.
goddammit I have a headache -___-
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On January 30 2011 16:02 Dhalphir wrote:
Or would it be even better to just not bother until a new iCCup season and jump in then when everyone's reset?
That's a horrible idea unless you want to go 0-100 in your first 100 games 
Anyway, here's a few tips from me:
1. Practice only 1 map, 1 build in only one match-up. This is the fastest & the best way to improve.
2. Join Teamliquid Layman Squad I'll be happy to practice with you if you want me to, i like to offrace too.
3. Start using f2, f3, and f4 for expansions, it helps a TON and i dont think this is implemented in sc2.
4. Never ever stop producing workers
5. Liquipedia. That is all.
6. Focus on macro, fancy micro is useless in D levels.
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Well I played my first game tonight, against a D Terran player on Blue Storm.
I didn't really have a solid build order yet, I vaguely had an idea of going for fast dragoons with range in case the Terran went heavy vultures but I forgot about spider mines and they caught me off guard without enough observers.
I expanded too late and didn't have enough gateways (the interface is like wading through thick mud at times!) but I enjoyed myself.
Here's the replay if anyone feels like watching a terrible player get owned.
I'd love some critique beyond what I already pointed out myself.
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/40259.jpg)
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Cool to see you playing man, broodwar is so awesome... but playing the computer gets really dry for me... my favorite thing is just to make up my own strategies sometimes and build of that until it starts working, really good way to learn. Also vods are awesome, but replays are really really good... there's so many skill levels to this game, I remember how I used to watch Savior's games and be impressed with his management... writing down his exact spire timing etc... not really necesarry for me now... but yeah, there's lots of graduations to higher levels I think... Plus I really love the dynamics of the different races...
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Just read through the other posts and yeah, I'm protoss too man. I really like to be creative, I dunno; also carriers are awesome, trust me I'm 26  , psi storm and carriers are nearly-imba imo
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On January 30 2011 19:43 Dhalphir wrote:Well I played my first game tonight, against a D Terran player on Blue Storm.
here's the main points i think you should focus on for now:
1- you wanna be using this BO almost every game against T when not fast expanding: pylon, gate, assimilator, core, pylon (or pylon-core if you will make a zealot)
2- your main unit early on is the dragoon, you dont need more than 1 zealot unless they are cheesing (2 barrack rush, very rare)
3- make the range upgrade on the core asap if you are going 2 gate goons, otherwise they are almost useless... actually make that even if going just 1 gate robo
4- you should avoid playing blue storm for now, its a confusing map for newbies because of how it affects unit AI, it requires you to route dragoons manually around the small entrance, which is why your first goon was going around your base
5- you generally only need 3 probes on the gas, except when the gas is further away than normal (you dont see this on recent pro maps like blue storm)
there's more but you should just focus on getting these basic things right for now
i recommend that you go 2 gate ranged goon into expansion and then add robo and obs asap, this is a good build that will get you easy wins against people who cant micro their vultures well
focus on finding places to attack from, learn to win, then with time the better players will punish your mistakes and you will fix them
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Remember to post in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173905
Also, we can start to play if you want! I'm recently switching from protoss to zerg, and I've never played zerg before(except campaign), so I suck pretty much! Then you can practice PvZ and I can practice ZvP, and we can become masters at it
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Croatia9501 Posts
Here's a good advice from this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186958
On January 23 2011 23:38 Soulforged wrote:This season, on my way to ~C+, I doubt I met what I'd consider a less-than-C ranked player more than a couple times - in ~30 games. Feels like with SC2, the lower tier players mostly dissapeared; or it could be just the timezone(koreans durr hurr). Saw nearly no players below 180 apm . Anyhow, iccup's not your best bet for starting out - that is, if you care even a bit about losing consistantly. I've wrote this before, but this should be a good way to progress for a total beginner player: 1)Play AI. If you can beat 3 alone, without abusing static defense beyond the 1st attack(sunken/lurk, cannons, lots of tanks, etc), you're set to go online. Seeing as you have decent mechanics already you probably can skip this step. 2)Play on U.S.East. That's the weakest official server, if you stick to "1vs1 Python noobs" games, aside from occasional smurf, you'll be mostly getting players who don't even use hotkeys well, in 100-150 apm ranges. Have >50% win rate? Drop the "noobs" from the game title. 3)Still have >50% win rate? Add "good" to game title. Go on to Europe or U.S.West. Play other maps; for example, on Destination or Fighting Spirit on public b.net you'll meet players stronger than on Python. Now, I can't really tell about West, but Europe public games should range from D- to C- in skill level. 4)After having a decent win rate at previous stage, you totally can go on to iccup and get to ~C- without much trouble. Or you could stay on official servers and play some play/obs - it's kind of a lottery from D- to C+, though. Better off going straight to iccup. Figure out where you are on this list, and continiue from there. Or you could stay on iccup, meet some fellow tl.net beginners, and practice with them, etc. Just remember that playing people who demolish you has both advantages and disadvantages: your gameplay will be crisp(as they kill you for first mistake), but your motivation could go down, fear, thinking it's impossible, etc.
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On January 30 2011 21:09 2Pacalypse- wrote:Here's a good advice from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186958Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 23:38 Soulforged wrote:This season, on my way to ~C+, I doubt I met what I'd consider a less-than-C ranked player more than a couple times - in ~30 games. Feels like with SC2, the lower tier players mostly dissapeared; or it could be just the timezone(koreans durr hurr). Saw nearly no players below 180 apm . Anyhow, iccup's not your best bet for starting out - that is, if you care even a bit about losing consistantly. I've wrote this before, but this should be a good way to progress for a total beginner player: 1)Play AI. If you can beat 3 alone, without abusing static defense beyond the 1st attack(sunken/lurk, cannons, lots of tanks, etc), you're set to go online. Seeing as you have decent mechanics already you probably can skip this step. 2)Play on U.S.East. That's the weakest official server, if you stick to "1vs1 Python noobs" games, aside from occasional smurf, you'll be mostly getting players who don't even use hotkeys well, in 100-150 apm ranges. Have >50% win rate? Drop the "noobs" from the game title. 3)Still have >50% win rate? Add "good" to game title. Go on to Europe or U.S.West. Play other maps; for example, on Destination or Fighting Spirit on public b.net you'll meet players stronger than on Python. Now, I can't really tell about West, but Europe public games should range from D- to C- in skill level. 4)After having a decent win rate at previous stage, you totally can go on to iccup and get to ~C- without much trouble. Or you could stay on official servers and play some play/obs - it's kind of a lottery from D- to C+, though. Better off going straight to iccup. Figure out where you are on this list, and continiue from there. Or you could stay on iccup, meet some fellow tl.net beginners, and practice with them, etc. Just remember that playing people who demolish you has both advantages and disadvantages: your gameplay will be crisp(as they kill you for first mistake), but your motivation could go down, fear, thinking it's impossible, etc.
Playing on battle.net is horrible though, I mean, extra high latency on iccup = low latency on bnet.
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:
Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work?
Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected.
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I would recommend playing on the more popular maps such as FS, Python, and Destination. I wouldn't know about playing on B.net. You'd want to play against someone who actually knows what a BO is, don't you?
Also, if you wanna feel extra cautious, you can avoid any "D" players that come from Korea (marked with [KR]) .
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I played another game just now. Another PvT.
Got smashed again.
Any advice this time? I stayed away from zealots, expanded earlier and went for just dragoons with +1 weapons. I was a bit late on my observers but wasn't really sure if that mattered since he didnt seem too mine-happy.
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/40262.jpg)
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This has been my process so far.
1) Play lots of games vs A.I. when you're downloading/torrenting stuff etc, just to get your fingers/mind used to the game.
2) Find a general build on Liquipedia for a matchup i.e. 1 rax FE TvZ.
3) Create a game on iccup 'D-/E TvZ, you Z'
4) Play that matchup until you're decent
5) Go back to 2
Also, playing full screen at 4:3 really seems to help with game sounds, no music. And download the mousefix, I think I got it from a Day9 thread. It's worth getting your mouse settings right.
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Hey I just watched your replay on Python
Some advice:
Although zealots aren't as effective in early game without speed in PvT, they are very important afterwards against tanks.
Pure dragoons vs tanks is pretty much gonna end up with blue goo everywhere most of the time. With zealots, they take tank fire better and run up to tanks, dragging mines (using move command) and causing tanks to splash each other splash.
Dragoons are good against vultures and goliaths though, while zealots are not so good against vultures in high numbers.
Your main army should consist of dragoons+zealots, with maybe shuttle drops, and later on get arbiters, then HT, or go carriers.
You don't need to go double robo though since reavers are only good early game vs T for harass with shuttle.
Also, try getting a third quicker and keep scouting expos around the map for enemy expos, later on you will develop better game sense for when enemy expands.
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@the python game
just gonna give some general tips
1) need better arrangement, so goons can pass better
2)get robotics around 2-3 gates, only 1. unless you go for reaver harass, don't get robotics support bay, just observatory
3)macro macro macro. the main problem here. you don't wanna be 2k mins, you want to hover below 400~500 at most. more gates more units
4) expand, you should be taking 1 everytime T gets one, staying 1 expo ahead of terran.
5)army composition. you always wanna have around 1/3 as much zealots as you have goons. reason is that since they are small units, they only get 50% damage from tanks, soaking up some hits for your goons.
6) try not to get pop stuck, especially during first ~70 population, since early/mid game it matters a lot. always keep an eye on your psi
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What posters above me meant was staying away from Zealots earlygame, not in general.
In BW, standard armies usually consist of the so-called core units and support units. In PvT, your core mid/lategame units are going to be the two basic Gateway units - Zealots and Dragoons. The former are meant to deal with Siege Tanks, while the latter - Vultures.
Your support units are going to be: Observers (general scouting, checking out the positioning of the enemy's army, dealing with mines, scouting expansions), Shuttle(s) (in battles they're used to drop Zealots onto the sieged Tanks or carrying HTs/Reavers), HTs (for Storms; make sure your other units don't get too far from your HTs since Vultures can easily snipe them, you could try carrying them in a Shuttle), sometimes Reavers (to attack clumped Tanks; people often have a Zealot+Reaver in their Shuttle and drop the Zealot first to draw fire away from the Reaver), and in lategame - Arbiters (for cloaking, Stasis and Recalls).
As for the replay on Python:
Your goal early on is to get range Goons and Observer tech quickly so that you can deal with mines. But don't ever make two Robos - it's a huge waste of gas. Then you'll want to secure your natural and aim to get your standard army.
Always try to stay ahead of the Terran by at least one expansion. Beware of timed attacks as soon as your extra expansion finishes, though, since that's when you're vulnerable (Nexus+Probes is a big investment - requires time to pay back and depending on the map may force you to spread your forces thin).
When going for Zealot first (you don't really need to, your first fighting unit may as well be a Dragoon), try doing something productive with it. You could e.g. block your ramp with it, and make the Terran think you're up to something sneaky, making him invest more in defences.
Place your Gates closer to the ramp - not in the back of your base. Basically, you want your base layout to not be an obstacle for your units in case the Terran drops you (you'd have to watch some games to see what I mean), while making sure your newly built units don't have to travel a distance longer than necessary (to your nat and subsequently the battlefield).
Use Spider Mines against your enemy - it's called mine dragging.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Minedrag.gif&filetimestamp=20090403173315
Combined with Shuttle, Zealots can be even more powerful because Siege Tanks in BW do not have any anti-overkill AI.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealot_Bombing
Your first major attack was surprisingly successful, but don't attack the Siege Tank line in a clumped blob of Goons. Send your Zealots first (WITH SPEED UPGRADE), they're your counter to Tanks. Here's what Liquipedia has to say about engaging the Terran army:
"Flanking
This technique is extremely effective and you should make a habit of always using it no matter what unit numbers you have - for example, you have a terran army at point B and your army at point A1.
A2.......
........B
A1.......
Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order it to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move Dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous. Flanking is considered a force-multiplier; it allows you to spread out the Terran's attack and reduce splash, while allowing you to concentrate your attack from multiple angles. Proper timing of the various flanking groups is absolutely critical.
If a flank is properly done, it can not only decimate the Terran push, it can hinder or prevent retreat as well, which will gain you a bigger advantage."
Read the whole article, TBH:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking
Also try to attack from an angle at which you're within range of the least number of Tanks.
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1) Any tips for making dragoons behave?
2) Yeah I got the robo support bay out of habit from SC2 to get observer speed. Forgot that the speed upgrade is on the observatory in BW
3) Haven't quite got a feel for when to add more gates. How many gates making dragoons can you support per expansion? 8? 9?
Ok so against a terran going vulture/tank, I want to get up to 3 gates asap, drop a robo for some observers, expand, add some zealots into the mix, get zealot speed (?), and continue production.
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On January 30 2011 23:09 maybenexttime wrote:What posters above me meant was staying away from Zealots earlygame, not in general. In BW, standard armies usually consist of the so-called core units and support units. In PvT, your core mid/lategame units are going to be the two basic Gateway units - Zealots and Dragoons. The former are meant to deal with Siege Tanks, while the latter - Vultures. Your support units are going to be: Observers (general scouting, checking out the positioning of the enemy's army, dealing with mines, scouting expansions), Shuttle(s) (in battles they're used to drop Zealots onto the sieged Tanks or carrying HTs/Reavers), HTs (for Storms; make sure your other units don't get too far from your HTs since Vultures can easily snipe them, you could try carrying them in a Shuttle), sometimes Reavers (to attack clumped Tanks; people often have a Zealot+Reaver in their Shuttle and drop the Zealot first to draw fire away from the Reaver), and in lategame - Arbiters (for cloaking, Stasis and Recalls). As for the replay on Python: Your goal early on is to get range Goons and Observer tech quickly so that you can deal with mines. But don't ever make two Robos - it's a huge waste of gas. Then you'll want to secure your natural and aim to get your standard army. Always try to stay ahead of the Terran by at least one expansion. Beware of timed attacks as soon as your extra expansion finishes, though, since that's when you're vulnerable (Nexus+Probes is a big investment - requires time to pay back and depending on the map may force you to spread your forces thin). When going for Zealot first (you don't really need to, your first fighting unit may as well be a Dragoon), try doing something productive with it. You could e.g. block your ramp with it, and make the Terran think you're up to something sneaky, making him invest more in defences. Place your Gates closer to the ramp - not in the back of your base. Basically, you want your base layout to not be an obstacle for your units in case the Terran drops you (you'd have to watch some games to see what I mean), while making sure your newly built units don't have to travel a distance longer than necessary (to your nat and subsequently the battlefield). Use Spider Mines against your enemy - it's called mine dragging. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Minedrag.gif&filetimestamp=20090403173315Combined with Shuttle, Zealots can be even more powerful because Siege Tanks in BW do not have any anti-overkill AI. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealot_BombingYour first major attack was surprisingly successful, but don't attack the Siege Tank line in a clumped blob of Goons. Send your Zealots first (WITH SPEED UPGRADE), they're your counter to Tanks. Here's what Liquipedia has to say about engaging the Terran army: "Flanking This technique is extremely effective and you should make a habit of always using it no matter what unit numbers you have - for example, you have a terran army at point B and your army at point A1. A2....... ........B A1....... Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order it to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move Dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous. Flanking is considered a force-multiplier; it allows you to spread out the Terran's attack and reduce splash, while allowing you to concentrate your attack from multiple angles. Proper timing of the various flanking groups is absolutely critical. If a flank is properly done, it can not only decimate the Terran push, it can hinder or prevent retreat as well, which will gain you a bigger advantage." Read the whole article, TBH: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking
This was a super awesome post thank you so so much!
So concaves are pretty much universally important here too.
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EPT
