EPTPositioning in general is much more important in BW than it is in sc2. You'll learn more about that once you get more in depth understanding of the game.
From SC2 -> BW - what do I need to know first? - Page 3
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maybenexttime
Poland5829 Posts
Positioning in general is much more important in BW than it is in sc2. You'll learn more about that once you get more in depth understanding of the game. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5829 Posts
On January 30 2011 23:20 Dhalphir wrote: Pretty much all Terrans are universally likely to go vulture/tank vs me as Protoss, is that right? it seems like bio would be too much of a risk for them given how potent storm and reavers are in BW? That's true. The core TvP army is Vultures with Tanks. Goliaths are there to counter Carriers or Arbiters, as well as Shuttles and Observers. As for support units, Terrans use Vessels (detection and EMP mainly) and sometimes Wraiths (either to handle Carriers or Shuttle shenanigans). You're unlikely to see bio play in TvP, although there's a strategy called Deep Six, but don't really worry about that - it's very rare. Bionic units are too fragile vs. Protoss (HTs, Reavers, DTs). | ||
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Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
On January 31 2011 00:23 IntoTheheart wrote: Actually guys, I feel that there are a ton of similar builds out there that you can use in similar matchups but more or less it's about knowing how to react too, right? I'm not downplaying SC2 skill or anything but in SC2 people opt for standard plays a lot more, whereas you get crazy guys and gals working crazy stuff a lot too. Macro > Micro. Micro makes the difference between having ONE vulture and TWO vultures getting decent kills, but does that little difference mean anything when you have like 3x the other guy's supply? :D If that vulture still has spider mines, absolutely  | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
build order 2 gate range -> pressure terran and expand, get robo&obs, add more gates to about 4, continue making units, when you get 1-2 groups of dragoons, get citadel for speed (when speed is halfway done, start making zealots from all your gates). expand again. (later when you get some more game sense, you can expand before zealots) more tanks -> more zealots more vultures -> more goons don't bother with shuttle drops on tanks imo make sure you put your unit groups in a semicircle around the terrans army so you can flank/sandwich him. always try to stay close to the terran army so you can pounce it if he unsieges or is out of position, but far enough so that you're not in range. (maintaing this distance while terran is moving and still keeping a flanking setup so you can attack him at any time can be a bit hard until you learn it) if you're losing the battle, retreat - this is important. you usually retreat when zealots have died and your dragoons don't stand a chance against his tanks. then when new zealots come, you can attack again. use f2 for main nex, f3 for expansion nex, f4 for gateways (or hotkey a gateway at 6 and press 66 to get to the gateways and use f4 for the 2nd exp) use 0 for main nex, 9 for expansion, then you can do 0p9p to make probes even if you're not looking. 1 obs in terrans base to see the number of factories, 1 in front of his base to see how much army he has, and any army movements. and 1 with your units. you can add more later. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5829 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me [...] Actually I am. Due to a crash of my PC I am not able to continue playing SC2 for some time so I decided to give BW a shot (never played it before except SP, but like you really enjoyed to watch it) in the meantime. My greatest obstacle for improving in SC2 (~2.2k-2.5k Diamond) was Macro and because Macro in BW is much more difficult than in SC2 I may skyrocket in SC2 if I master it in BW. Hm it seems my thoughts drifted away a bit, so I marked the advice parts (things that seem to work well for me). I started directly on Iccup last Weekend. Decided to play just on one Map at a time (Destination for the first half of the week, Heartbreak Ridge since then) which seems to work very well. First I really had no clue what to do and so the first games I did not lose were just Unit massing to 200/200 and A Move into enemies front. But I had to find out very soon, that D Region is full of /clearstats - Players and even regular D Level Players are way more routined than me. So I took one step back and again pored over BW Liquipedia, the D9Ds (BW) and Ver's Guide to Improving (fortunatly I already knew them in detail because of my preperation for SC2) and chose Builds for each Matchup on Destination/HBR. Currently I am doing PvT: 1 Gate Core Expand into 4 Gates (blindly) + Obs into 3rd Gas and more Gates + Arbiter; I really would like to open 12 Nexus but I dislike to fend off Bunker Rushes because Probes get stuck against each other (unlike SC2) and refuse to Attackmove most of the time (did not found a viable solution yet) PvP: 1 Gate Goon Range + Obs into 2 Gate Goon expand into more Gates + Reavers PvZ: Forge FE into 3 Gate +1 Speedlot Rush, taking a third during the rush and pounding zerg down with much more Zealots/Archons (+ Obs against Lurker) and mass Corsair before I tend to depend on Psy Storm / Reavers because my Shuttle/HT control is really awefull (no smartcast :< ) As mentioned before you will most likely lose a ton of games but unlike SC2 (at least for me) each win is much more satisfying and improvement is much more perceptible. For example I hesitated to move out with my initial Units in PvT because I was really afraid of sieged Tanks and Mines (my first PvT was on Blue Storm aswell and I ran into my first mines ever like you did, with a feeling "Mines! So exciting! I am truly playing BW PvT now :D " followed by "Zomigosh! They are everywhere! Every step impends sudden death! O.O ") But eventually by watching the replay of another defeat I suddenly realized that its all but impossible for T to have Mines and/or Siege Mode unless a certain point in time (even more if he intends to expand early and _even_ more if he early expands without a factory) and therefore I have a timing window where I can not just move around freely on the map but also pressure T a bit with early Goons. Although this seems total obvious in retrospect, it felt like an epiphany by that time and in conjunction I remembered about Ver's Guide talking about that concept of recognizing your opponents point of view in order to fathom your own play and experiencing that again was absolutly satisfying. However, even by that short period of time I eventually was able to climb up to D+ , lost 13 Games in a row after that cO and now worked up to D+ again. Tbh geting promoted oc flatters my ego, but I dont really care about my rating. I am not hesitant to lose 50 Points by leaving a game in order to punish myself for geting supply capped or botching my Build within first 5 Minutes. Therefore if you can motivate yourself through skill improvement instead of rating improvement I absolutly think you can start with Iccup right away. For example I am still horrible at TvP (currently my worst Matchup with 24% Winratio) but am already able to identify a FD Opening and fend it of with increasing ease. | ||
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Kairo
Sweden184 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154 Oh how i wish that Day[9] would start to occasionally do a BW game once in a while. His look at Fantasy OSL ro4 and finals would be so so awesome  | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On January 31 2011 09:03 Dhalphir wrote: So many great posts coming from everyone. I'm loving it. What a great BW community. now you know why TL has been so awesome over the years!  I'm learning stuff from people even though I don't play protoss (or much BW anymore... ) | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On January 31 2011 07:45 Kairo wrote: It was mentioned in the middle of an earlier post, but if you would like to improve your basic gamesense and at the same time enjoy nice replays you should really watch the first 66 episodes of Day[9] Dailies. Maybe look for the PvX ones to start with if you are eager, but definitely look at all of them later on. It will get those grey cells working on stuff that you otherwise would not, and give you the perspective that certain amounts of gamesense maybe isn´t unobtainable pure magic after all. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154 Oh how i wish that Day[9] would start to occasionally do a BW game once in a while. His look at Fantasy OSL ro4 and finals would be so so awesome http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 ^^ listening to these might help a lot too. they may be geared towards a bit better players, but it's worth listening to even if you're not a good player, just so that you know what to strive for, and how to approach things in the future. It will help you improve the way you think about the game and strategy. I suggest while listening to them to do that exclusively, don't do something else at the same time. On January 31 2011 01:26 Xanatoss wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me [...] Actually I am. Due to a crash of my PC I am not able to continue playing SC2 for some time so I decided to give BW a shot (never played it before except SP, but like you really enjoyed to watch it) in the meantime. My greatest obstacle for improving in SC2 (~2.2k-2.5k Diamond) was Macro and because Macro in BW is much more difficult than in SC2 I may skyrocket in SC2 if I master it in BW. Hm it seems my thoughts drifted away a bit, so I marked the advice parts (things that seem to work well for me). I started directly on Iccup last Weekend. Decided to play just on one Map at a time (Destination for the first half of the week, Heartbreak Ridge since then) which seems to work very well. First I really had no clue what to do and so the first games I did not lose were just Unit massing to 200/200 and A Move into enemies front. But I had to find out very soon, that D Region is full of /clearstats - Players and even regular D Level Players are way more routined than me. So I took one step back and again pored over BW Liquipedia, the D9Ds (BW) and Ver's Guide to Improving (fortunatly I already knew them in detail because of my preperation for SC2) and chose Builds for each Matchup on Destination/HBR. Currently I am doing PvT: 1 Gate Core Expand into 4 Gates (blindly) + Obs into 3rd Gas and more Gates + Arbiter; I really would like to open 12 Nexus but I dislike to fend off Bunker Rushes because Probes get stuck against each other (unlike SC2) and refuse to Attackmove most of the time (did not found a viable solution yet) PvP: 1 Gate Goon Range + Obs into 2 Gate Goon expand into more Gates + Reavers PvZ: Forge FE into 3 Gate +1 Speedlot Rush, taking a third during the rush and pounding zerg down with much more Zealots/Archons (+ Obs against Lurker) and mass Corsair before I tend to depend on Psy Storm / Reavers because my Shuttle/HT control is really awefull (no smartcast :< ) As mentioned before you will most likely lose a ton of games but unlike SC2 (at least for me) each win is much more satisfying and improvement is much more perceptible. For example I hesitated to move out with my initial Units in PvT because I was really afraid of sieged Tanks and Mines (my first PvT was on Blue Storm aswell and I ran into my first mines ever like you did, with a feeling "Mines! So exciting! I am truly playing BW PvT now :D " followed by "Zomigosh! They are everywhere! Every step impends sudden death! O.O ") But eventually by watching the replay of another defeat I suddenly realized that its all but impossible for T to have Mines and/or Siege Mode unless a certain point in time (even more if he intends to expand early and _even_ more if he early expands without a factory) and therefore I have a timing window where I can not just move around freely on the map but also pressure T a bit with early Goons. Although this seems total obvious in retrospect, it felt like an epiphany by that time and in conjunction I remembered about Ver's Guide talking about that concept of recognizing your opponents point of view in order to fathom your own play and experiencing that again was absolutly satisfying. However, even by that short period of time I eventually was able to climb up to D+ , lost 13 Games in a row after that cO and now worked up to D+ again. Tbh geting promoted oc flatters my ego, but I dont really care about my rating. I am not hesitant to lose 50 Points by leaving a game in order to punish myself for geting supply capped or botching my Build within first 5 Minutes. Therefore if you can motivate yourself through skill improvement instead of rating improvement I absolutly think you can start with Iccup right away. For example I am still horrible at TvP (currently my worst Matchup with 24% Winratio) but am already able to identify a FD Opening and fend it of with increasing ease. very good post. I'm glad to hear about your progress and improvement in the way of thinking. also, you can check out this topic and my comment (it's pretty much the same as this): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7584782 | ||
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luckyseven
179 Posts
On January 30 2011 21:13 MamiyaOtaru wrote: Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected. wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On January 31 2011 14:00 luckyseven wrote: wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW i am so mad I never knew this though I've never had issues with worker mining accuracy | ||
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luckyseven
179 Posts
1. when moving them down a ramp, you'll need to watch and nudge them a bit. they will bump into each other and start going the other way >_> 2. watch a few pvts in the progaming database. often terran makes a small attack at the start with marines a tank and a vult, and you can see the protoss trying to micro a few goons against it. note how you have to wait for the goons to fire before moving them, and how fucking long this takes. if you move them at the wrong time they will cancel their attack and you'll end up never shooting (as im sure you're already aware). basically you need to practice "a-move, move, a-move, move" timing iirc this is also why its important to NOT use attack-move repeatedly when in combat. everytime you click attack-move, your goons will cancel shooting/reset their animation. obv this will cost you the fight. iirc BEST LINK ON TEAMLIQUID http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/vods/nospoiler the yellow Cross on the left side of each entry is a link to a youtube vid of the game 3. pay extra extra attention when a vulture gets into your base and you send goons to chase it. often due to your shitty micro they will not see the vulture and end up standing around about 3 centimetres away from it just watching it kill your probes >_> 4. as people have said, goons will clump up. you should ALWAYS be going to your control groups every so often and spreading them out, if only to block the path of vultures that might try to sneak into your base. make it your job to do this, many players will happily rape you just using vultures alone (welcome to hell) 5. when you attack, as people have said, send the zealots first (spread out so they dont all die to 2 mines). when all zealots are dead, immediately pull back your dragoons out of tank range until your next wave of zealots come. you'll see this happen every time in pro games, and soooo many games are lost because of not having the patience to do this. often you'll hear me say "damn nice discipline" when watching a pvt when the protoss has the discipline to pull back when his zealots are down | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On January 31 2011 14:00 luckyseven wrote: wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW Agreed.... This makes mining on positions like Longinus @ 6 sooooo much easier... | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence. | ||
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Magus
Canada450 Posts
On January 31 2011 14:57 Dhalphir wrote: Yep I just had a game last night where the Terran just made nothing but vultures and ran them into my base around and around and around sniping workers. It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence. You need to leave some goons where they're going, move some to cut them off and have some chase them. Otherwise you can just start playing the Benny Hill theme and lose all of your workers. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:08 Magus wrote: You need to leave some goons where they're going, move some to cut them off and have some chase them. Otherwise you can just start playing the Benny Hill theme and lose all of your workers. Oh I knew perfectly well what to do. The concept of intercepting Vultures with Dragoons is identical to the concept of intercepting Hellions with Stalkers in Starcraft 2. The difference being that in Starcraft 2 you tell one Stalker to go HERE, and two stalkers to go HERE, and a fourth to go THERE and the hellion is neatly herded to its doom. In Brood War, you tell one Dragoon to go HERE, and another to go THERE, and then a last one to go over by your ramp to cut off the Vulture's retreat, and what ACTUALLY happens is that the Vulture happily sits by your probe line killing workers while the dragoons go spastic in a corner of your base and one of them decides that the act of moving around has just become all too much effort and just sits still. Having to babysit units is something I'm slowly getting used to but it is still frustrating at times. | ||
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