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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 23 2013 05:30 Don_Julio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 04:58 CobaltBlu wrote:
There is no way he could know, from his world view at least, that Dany hates slavers so much that she is going to order the city owners massacred and city razed. That was a pretty brutal move on her part. Does she really hate slavery so much? She tolerated it as a Dohtrakian tradition at least. The slaver could at least expect her to not just give away a dragon. (That is what i feel was her main motive, the anti-slavery is just a noble side effect) Particularly after her suspicious questions. But I guess you guys are right that the slaver totally underestimates women and foreigners.
Remember that she was a lot less confident as Khaleesi to Khal Drogo, and even then she still freed several slaves and (unfortunately) saved Mirri Maz Duur from a fate she deserved. She couldn't keep the entire Khalasar from taking slaves, because again, that is their culture and their worldview. But she did try to keep it out of sight and she stepped in to help when she could.
But she was a much different person then, and she has no attachment to these slavers like she did to the Dothraki horde.
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On April 23 2013 05:12 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 04:58 CobaltBlu wrote:
There is no way he could know, from his world view at least, that Dany hates slavers so much that she is going to order the city owners massacred and city razed. That was a pretty brutal move on her part. To the slaver, she's a customer, not an enemy. The slavers make their living selling to customers. It stands to reason they don't often get theft attempts of this sort.
I think this is the biggest part. He even mentioned to Dany that there are lots of towns along the way that she could raid and then sell the prisoners to him to make more unsullied. Also the city seems to have no other strategic or economic significance outside of slave trade. So for someone who buys 8,000+ slaves to do so and then free the slaves didn't make sense to him. And obviously the slavery was a huge deal because if she JUST wanted the dragon back she could have just killed the slaver and taken it without killing every other slaver in the city who had nothing to do with this deal.
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when trading an army for anything. place said army outside walls of city.
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Either way, I imagine Daenaerys now basically controls the city... Killing the rulers is the right action just on a practical sense, since she now owns an entire city [on top of a dedicated army] to which she can spring board an invasion of westeros. Needs ships first though.
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On April 23 2013 05:12 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 04:52 Sub40APM wrote:On April 23 2013 04:43 ZasZ. wrote:On April 23 2013 04:30 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
I don't know but in regards to storytelling I feel like the Unsullied stuff was just too generic, foreseeable and simply too dumb/unrealistic, even in their world.
I mean I just don't see how this Unsullied/Slave master can go for the trade. Much less so without any precautions at all. No "don't kill me with my army" deal or anything. He just takes a dragon at a leash that can more than obviously just rip him apart or burn him at will. He had basically blind faith into that deal which didn't suit his character at all. I mean obviously they went for the "he's so full of himself he won't realize shit" attitude but still, if I could tell that character something it would be "Are you really this fucking stupid?" Keep in mind that no one has ever purchased an entire Unsullied army before, which is why he laughs at her when she says she wants to buy them all. Unsullied are incredibly expensive, and his clients would usually purchase them a battalion at a time, leaving him with more than enough troops to defend himself from exactly what happened. The problem here is that she made him an offer he couldn't possibly refuse. Dragons were thought to be extinct from the world, and have demonstrated in the past that they are greater than any army. The fact that she hatched three and was willing to part with one was greater payment than anything he could have hoped for, and ultimately blinded him from the rather obvious result. Also keep in mind, as you can tell from the way he speaks to her, that these slavers hold very little regard for her in general, discounting her as a weak beggar woman with the great fortune of having her own dragons. I doubt they expected this level of cunning and brutality from her, even though it made the most sense. It makes sense to us that she would want to free the slaves and sack the city with her new army, but might not be so obvious to those who don't find slavery so repugnant. I dont know, people are doing a lot of mental gymanstics here to justify how truly dumb the slavers were. If her boat can buy her 100, that means 80 boats can buy their entire load. And we know for a fact that a place like Qarth alone has individual merchants with fleets that large. So surely someone else had the coin to buy an entire load. Which again goes back to the question of why wouldnt you be slightly cautious around her. The slavers were saturday morning cartoons bad guy evil, making them officially the dumbest bad guys in the show and miles ahead -- in stupidity -- of the already incredibly dumb iron born. It's not mental gymnastics to try to see into each character's motives and worldviews. First I think it was 100 Unsullied for all three of her boats. Second, even though there may be people in the world who could afford that many Unsullied, they don't have her motives. What would a merchant lord of Qarth want with an army? They need food and lodging, and using them for their sole purpose, war, is bad for business. Most likely when people as wealthy as them buy Unsullied, it's as guards in small battalions/regiments, not entire armies. They weren't cautious around her because their patriarchal, slaver society regards her as a weak beggar woman, and it doesn't even enter into their heads that people could find slaving reprehensible by nature. These cities are a long way from Westeros and this is their culture. They underestimate Dany and they pay for it. It was shortsighted and unintelligent to do so, but I don't think it is an "immersion-breaking" stupidity that should make people say that the writing is bad.
Also we're talking about trading for the baby form of a beast so powerful that 3 could subdue a whole continent of warring factions.
Who wouldn't get big eyes at the prospect of that. In addition to all the other factors Zasz mentions, I think people shouldnt forget that (1) No one has seen a dragon in their lifetime, (2) the myths surrounding the dragon include the power to conquer a continent. Besides, what leader who wants to stay a power around here would get rid of the slave kingdom? You destroy your supply of fantastic troops and potentially trigger whatever arrangements a large powerful city state has (Thinking Italian city-state).
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This last episode was amazing!! Shit just got real. Daenerys is just a boss, seriously, knowing the language and leading them on. Not even telling her advisor and Barristan the Bold. I expected that she was going to use the army to move on em and Dragon as a proxy to take the handlers out. I mean last season, "Gimme back my dragons!!" she wouldn't shut up about it, no way she would part with it.. they are her meows and children. The unsullied know they are an army and were trained since they were little. Its all that they know, and the fact that this woman just outwitted that guy and freed them with her royal name and FUCKING DRAGONS. Its only logical to side with her remaining 'free' soldiers like in any other kingdoms army.
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the biggest mindfuck (or something that doesnt make sense) is not unsullied vs astapor, but theon
that guy that was "saving" theon, killed three of his men (that captured the escaped theon) just to get answers from theon...wtf
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tbh, its a great way to get answers
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On April 23 2013 05:54 jinorazi wrote:
the biggest mindfuck (or something that doesnt make sense) is not unsullied vs astapor, but theon
that guy that was "saving" theon, killed three of his men (that captured the escaped theon) just to get answers from theon...wtf
That actually confused me quite a bit aswell... I guess that guy might have a role in the future that can explain it somewhat?
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I don't understand the whole trial by combat thing, does being good with a sword mean you will never be found guilty of a crime? Why didn't Ned do trial by combat? is it their beliefs that the old gods or new will decide who wins or a non-religous reason that trial by combat is an acceptable form of justice.
Also, in my opinion, I dislike Theon/Ironborne story the most, love danearis/Arya, Jaime is trending up, Night watch trending down, indifferent to Kings Landing/Stanis/Rob.
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On April 23 2013 05:40 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:30 Don_Julio wrote:On April 23 2013 04:58 CobaltBlu wrote:
There is no way he could know, from his world view at least, that Dany hates slavers so much that she is going to order the city owners massacred and city razed. That was a pretty brutal move on her part. Does she really hate slavery so much? She tolerated it as a Dohtrakian tradition at least. The slaver could at least expect her to not just give away a dragon. (That is what i feel was her main motive, the anti-slavery is just a noble side effect) Particularly after her suspicious questions. But I guess you guys are right that the slaver totally underestimates women and foreigners. Remember that she was a lot less confident as Khaleesi to Khal Drogo, and even then she still freed several slaves and (unfortunately ) saved Mirri Maz Duur from a fate she deserved. She couldn't keep the entire Khalasar from taking slaves, because again, that is their culture and their worldview. But she did try to keep it out of sight and she stepped in to help when she could. But she was a much different person then, and she has no attachment to these slavers like she did to the Dothraki horde.
WTF? What is that deserved fate? Death? For what? Being in the village Dothraki sacked? Seriously. I would wish people would think before they start writing bullshit.
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On April 23 2013 06:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I don't understand the whole trial by combat thing, does being good with a sword mean you will never be found guilty of a crime? Why didn't Ned do trial by combat? is it their beliefs that the old gods or new will decide who wins or a non-religous reason that trial by combat is an acceptable form of justice.
Basicly yes trial by combat is a get out of jail free card for nobles if you are skilled enough with a sword, but Ned plee bargained to save his daughters if you remember and wasn't supposed to die for his confession, he was supposed to go to the wall. After he confessed, he couldn't then claim he was innocent and ask for trial by combat. Plus his leg was still hurt from when it had the spear run thru it and he was weak from being imprisoned for so long.
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On April 23 2013 06:08 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I don't understand the whole trial by combat thing, does being good with a sword mean you will never be found guilty of a crime? Why didn't Ned do trial by combat? is it their beliefs that the old gods or new will decide who wins or a non-religous reason that trial by combat is an acceptable form of justice.
Also, in my opinion, I dislike Theon/Ironborne story the most, love danearis/Arya, Jaime is trending up, Night watch trending down, indifferent to Kings Landing/Stanis/Rob. Basicly yes trial by combat is a get out of jail free card for nobles if you are skilled enough with a sword, but Ned plee bargained to save his daughters if you remember and wasn't supposed to die for his confession. After he confessed, he couldn't then claim he was innocent and ask for trial by combat. Plus his leg was still hurt from when it had the spear run thru it and he was weak from being imprisoned for so long.
Trial by combat is not always given to nobles, this is incorrect. Trial by combat is, indeed, given to nobles when their crime is not sufficiently proven (i.e. exactly what happened) or if the extent of their crime is deemed able decided by trail by combat.
In the end, however, it is up to whoever is in charge to make final decision for a noble may 'request' tbc, not demand.
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Great episode t.t. can't wait for the next one lol.
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On April 23 2013 05:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Either way, I imagine Daenaerys now basically controls the city... Killing the rulers is the right action just on a practical sense, since she now owns an entire city [on top of a dedicated army] to which she can spring board an invasion of westeros. Needs ships first though.
Actually, she controls Qarth too doesn't she?
The rich dude became king by killling the other of the 13, with help of the warlock.
And then Daenarys killed both of them.
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Yes but as Mirri pointed out she had already been raped several times, most of her friends and family had been killed, and she had nothing left to live for at that point but to be a slave. So her wanting to kill Drogo is completely understandable as he was ultimately responsible for all of that. To say she deserved to die BEFORE she killed Drogo and caused Dany to stillborn is incorrect. Dany was foolish to trust her.
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On April 23 2013 06:12 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Either way, I imagine Daenaerys now basically controls the city... Killing the rulers is the right action just on a practical sense, since she now owns an entire city [on top of a dedicated army] to which she can spring board an invasion of westeros. Needs ships first though. Actually, she controls Qarth too doesn't she? The rich dude became king by killling the other of the 13, with help of the warlock. And then Daenarys killed both of them.
Qarth is controlled by money to my understanding?
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On April 23 2013 06:12 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Either way, I imagine Daenaerys now basically controls the city... Killing the rulers is the right action just on a practical sense, since she now owns an entire city [on top of a dedicated army] to which she can spring board an invasion of westeros. Needs ships first though. Actually, she controls Qarth too doesn't she? The rich dude became king by killling the other of the 13, with help of the warlock. And then Daenarys killed both of them.
I doubt it. She looted the guys mansion and then took off on his ships. Didn't leave behind any trustworthy lieutenants to rule the city. Can't see how she could possibly retain control since it's a merchant based city, there was no kings.
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On April 23 2013 06:08 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I don't understand the whole trial by combat thing, does being good with a sword mean you will never be found guilty of a crime? Why didn't Ned do trial by combat? is it their beliefs that the old gods or new will decide who wins or a non-religous reason that trial by combat is an acceptable form of justice. Basicly yes trial by combat is a get out of jail free card for nobles if you are skilled enough with a sword, but Ned plee bargained to save his daughters if you remember and wasn't supposed to die for his confession, he was supposed to go to the wall. After he confessed, he couldn't then claim he was innocent and ask for trial by combat. Plus his leg was still hurt from when it had the spear run thru it and he was weak from being imprisoned for so long.
also its questionable whether or not he could beat jaime in single combat even if he was fully healthy. he definitely could not with an injury though. Trial by combat pretty much ensures the Lannisters are guilt free. Jaime is such a skilled swordsman (was i guess) that there are quite few people who could beat him, the mountain, Bronn, Briann, Ned (on a good day), are probably the only people seen so far that could beat him though possibly Selmy could i'm not sure how well his sword arm aged. And as you know most of those people serve/served the lannisters.
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The dragons are getting big already. I really hope she gets to King's Landing by the end of this season. Wanna see more fire from now on.
Also, am I the only one around here who thinks Jaime is not gonna make it? I think he dies in the near future due his state.
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EPT
