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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
I mean, I find a bit weird that GRRM finds the show phenomenal, and somehow 90% of the comments in this thread are direct bashing at the writers  Everyone has its own taste, and all critiques are interesting for sure, but sometimes the wording is a bit disheartening - it's just that. | ||
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Ncutable
Romania99 Posts
On August 24 2017 23:24 KwarK wrote: ...and Jaime goes "I choose this" or whatever and then the two of them stoically face down the dragonfire... "the things we do for love" | ||
KwarK
United States43221 Posts
A++ that'd be fucking perfect | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 24 2017 23:34 KwarK wrote: It gets the story where it needs to be. Tidies up the bits of the story we don't need anymore in a meaningful way (Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime etc), advances Dany's Mad Queen storyline a shitton while keeping it all within character and rational, sets Jon up at where he ought to be for the last season with a dragon and knowing who he is, gets the WW to finally do fucking something. There has to be an end game for the Lannister storyline. We've spent six seasons setting this up so that Jaime is torn between his love for his sister and his duty, his sister has destroyed everything she loves in a futile quest for power, Tyrion is on the other side of it advising Dany while loving his brother, and Dany is about to sweep everything away. They're not setting Cersei up to win, but that's fine, that's not the point of them in this part of the story. The Lannisters lose. What matters for the storyline is what it means that the Lannisters lose, and we have everything we need for that to be the turning point in Dany's character arc. It is time for the Lannister storyline to payoff, and that payoff is in terms of how it changes the characters who continue into the end game. This "defeat their army in battle then make peace with them" shit is treading water. Think about this series in terms of emotional weight. When the pirate captured Sand Snakes and gang, did you give a shit? When Highgarden was suddenly defeated out of nowhere, did you give a shit? When the Tarlys were toasted, did you give a shit? When Cersei does her poison revenge plan, did you give a shit? When Grey Worm and Missandei hooked up, did you give a shit? When Jaime fell in the river, did you give a shit? When Jon fell in the lake, did you give a shit? When Benjen had a dramatic return and then died, did you give a shit? When Casterly Rock fell, did you give a shit? When Cersei decided she was pregnant, did you give a shit? They're afraid to touch anything that matters and so they tread water. If they didn't have the books to work from Ned would probably still be alive. They refuse to develop anything with the core cast so they keep introducing new bullshit around the periphery and then immediately discard it. But it's been six seasons now. It's time for the payoff. All of your examples could have been better executed and then people would give a shit, yes. This has nothing to do with broad storypoints, this is about the details. All you did with your version is writing some broad bullet points, almost anything can look decent that way. What's actually important is how you develop these things. "white walkers attacking expedition north of the wall (including Jon, The Hound, etc)" "Dany saves them with dragons, one dragon dies" That isn't bad in itself. How you get to these points is the problem | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1947 Posts
This is why having more then +100k men + 3 dragons and the biggest fleet suddenly turns into having 4k unsullied and a horde with 2 dragons even though they only face 10k Lannisters and one fortified city. Killing everybody except Cersei and Jaime in Kings Landing put them into a corner because there is realistically not a lot those two can do to generate more plot. I probably would have cut the Khalasar, aquiring them was bullshit anyway. Dany sets over with just the unsullied, then has to chose between the Reach and Dorne because they hate each other. She would then allie with the Tyrells because House Ellaria just murdered their leader and is batshit-crazy. And i think we will have to see Jaime kill Cersei to protect the people, the prophecy is in the books and D&D will adopt it because it is exactly their kind of writing. Their aparent hard-on for Dany will in my opinion not allow for crazy Dany, they don't write for us, they write for those that cheered when Gendry was bantering with Jon Snu. | ||
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KwarK
United States43221 Posts
There are these really big story moments that have to happen at some point. Cersei and Dany must clash. Jaime must make a choice relating to Cersei. Tyrion must make a choice relating to Dany and Jaime. Jon must realize his heritage and make a choice relating to Dany, who also must make a choice relating to him. There must be a battle between Cersei and Dany. There must be a battle between the north and the WW. Then there must eventually be a battle between the living and the dead. They've built this up for so long and imbued all these major confrontations with so much meaning due to how well we know the characters and how interconnected all these conflicts are. The outcome of the Dany Cersei confrontation for Tyrion could radically change the outcome of the Dany Jon confrontation for example. But instead we're worrying about whether Gendry, who we didn't know was even still a character an episode earlier, will make it back to the wall in time. The writers are treading water. The execution isn't the issue, it's that they're unwilling to use the main characters. The wagon attack scene was absolutely beautiful. Great execution. But then absolutely nothing came of it. Dany + Tyrion development with the Tarlys was undermined by the fact that nobody gives a fuck about the Tarlys. Give us Jaime in that scene and we have a party. | ||
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PandaRed
France58 Posts
Would be pretty interesting if the last dragon was on the White Walker's side ... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18115 Posts
On August 25 2017 00:15 Broetchenholer wrote: While your story is what realistically should happen, the problem is it does not fill the seasons. Even if you suddenly slow waaaaay down, your story is 4-5 episodes. The reason they are catching a wight is just that, buying time. A theory i recently read was that season 6 was essentially them trying to buy time for Martin to finish the book, it makes sense, everything that happened in 6 up until the battle of the bastards changes the plot about zero. Now they didn't get the content they wanted from Martin and they realized that they need to stretch the human conflict out for as long as possible. This is why having more then +100k men + 3 dragons and the biggest fleet suddenly turns into having 4k unsullied and a horde with 2 dragons even though they only face 10k Lannisters and one fortified city. Killing everybody except Cersei and Jaime in Kings Landing put them into a corner because there is realistically not a lot those two can do to generate more plot. I probably would have cut the Khalasar, aquiring them was bullshit anyway. Dany sets over with just the unsullied, then has to chose between the Reach and Dorne because they hate each other. She would then allie with the Tyrells because House Ellaria just murdered their leader and is batshit-crazy. And i think we will have to see Jaime kill Cersei to protect the people, the prophecy is in the books and D&D will adopt it because it is exactly their kind of writing. Their aparent hard-on for Dany will in my opinion not allow for crazy Dany, they don't write for us, they write for those that cheered when Gendry was bantering with Jon Snu. That doesn't make any sense at all. They have done nothing but complain that they have to pick up the pace so much because they can't fit everything into the episodes they have left. Now you're saying they invented a "filler" trip past the wall because they didn't have enough content. That just doesn't make sense. What makes sense is that they had a bullet point from GRRM: - Night King raises Frost Wyrm They didn't really know how to get there, and then came up with the cockamamy scheme to go capture a wight. While I don't think Kwark's bullet points are necessarily good, they are better than "convince Cersei to have a ceasefire by bringing a living wight to show her there's an army of the dead"... it is just incoherent jibberish. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1947 Posts
-Daenerys is told by Jon, that there is a horde of undead lead by powerful white walkers behind the wall ready to attack at any moment. -Danaerys is like, "nu-uh" -Jon is like, how about we go there and get you a living one, it's the worst idea ever but if this is what is needed to convice you, we will do it. -Tyrion says that this Jon Snu guy is trustworthy -Dany then claims that trying to get a single skeleton from a fictionary army of skeletons is the worst idea ever and as she kinda luvs Jon Snu she invites him to fly north to show her. - they find the gigantic army, she is in shock, roasts a few of them and suddenly the Flak starts to fire and Vyserion goes down. Please tell my why this was not possible. In my opinion, there are these stories left for them: -Cersei needs to die. -Littlefinger needs to die -Kill the army of the dead. This is already really really little for 6 episodes of more then an hour. Littlefinger will probably die on Sunday. If Cersei would simply be defeated as well, they would have 5 or 4 episodes to sill with nothing but the fight between the living and the dead. They would have to go full Return of the King there and make 3 hours of monster bashing to make that work and they simply can't. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
But yes it makes sense to try to convince EVERYBODY in westeros that these undeads are real. If you want help for the battle better proof that this battle actually exists edit: and that is what i mean with details, the execution of the show was simply bad. But the bullet point is decent. | ||
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KwarK
United States43221 Posts
It's just more treading water. I'm fine with frost dragon, it's just that it's literally the only thing that I think happened this season so far that impacts the plot and the reason that it happened doesn't make any sense. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18115 Posts
On August 25 2017 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: People harp really hard on the "aquire proof that the threat actually exists". I don't really understand why. It makes sense to try that tbh. Does it make sense to send like 15 men, even the king in the north to that mission without any real preparation/plan? No. But yes it makes sense to try to convince EVERYBODY in westeros that these undeads are real. If you want help for the battle better proof that this battle actually exists edit: and that is what i mean with details, the execution of the show was simply bad. But the bullet point is decent. everybody who? There are 3 people who matter: King in the North: biggest proponent of "holy shit, there's a horde of undead about to flood my lands" Dany: maybe required a wight as proof, but when Gendry sends a raven saying they're in trouble, jumps on a dragon to go see for herself. She could just have done this flyby in the first place, and saved everybody a load of trouble. Cersei: her opinion on this is only made relevant by a completely nonsensical plot. Moreover, she literally won't give a shit about the existence of an undead army, because the north is not her problem. So who exactly is this wight going to convince? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Ofc the show didn't really talk much about it, but no there aren't only three people who are "important" when it's about getting an army. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
I don't agree that the rest of the story this season has been bad, though. Episode 4 was amazing, even if Jamie getting away seemed far fetched. That was like, meh, he should've been caught, or died, but whatever. Cersei's revenge on dornish ladies was totally on point, and absolutely a game of thrones worthy moment. Dany losing large portions of her army to push her towards individual action, which pushes her towards madness because she enjoys her dragons roasting people alive, totally on point. Stuff that happens in the north hasn't seen its conclusion yet, so it's too early for me to say that it's been bad - I've enjoyed the Bran scenes a lot. Honestly, prior to the previous episode I didn't really have any complains to make, but the writing in the previous episode was, in my opinion, by a distance the worst of the entire series so far, so it's disappointing. But hopefully they don't fuck up like that again. I also cared about Olenna. she had been one of my favorite characters. Definitely fits the 'big and significant death'. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18115 Posts
On August 25 2017 01:26 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think the whole send the best and brightest fighters of the realm including the fucking king of the north on a suicide mission without anything resembling a plan, for them to first nearly impossibly luck out finding a lone wight not controlled by the one white walker in the tiny small group they happened to accidentally run into, and to follow that up with an actually impossible rescue plan, that was really, really poor writing. I don't agree that the rest of the story this season has been bad, though. Episode 4 was amazing, even if Jamie getting away seemed far fetched. That was like, meh, he should've been caught, or died, but whatever. Cersei's revenge on dornish ladies was totally on point, and absolutely a game of thrones worthy moment. Dany losing large portions of her army to push her towards individual action, which pushes her towards madness because she enjoys her dragons roasting people alive, totally on point. Stuff that happens in the north hasn't seen its conclusion yet, so it's too early for me to say that it's been bad - I've enjoyed the Bran scenes a lot. Honestly, prior to the previous episode I didn't really have any complains to make, but the writing in the previous episode was, in my opinion, by a distance the worst of the entire season so far, so it's disappointing. But hopefully they don't fuck up like that again. I also cared about Olenna. she had been one of my favorite characters. Definitely fits the 'big and significant death'. I mostly agree with this. The rest of the season also had Euron teleporting all over the seven seas which pissed me off a bit, but while the season hasn't been on par with earlier seasons, it has been pretty good, and episode 4 was overall just really good. | ||
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
It will be really poor if the books Sam has stolen contains every knowledge they need when they have a shitload of secret books in Oldtown. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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thePunGun
598 Posts
"Shaaaameee! SHAAAAAMEE! Shaaaaaaaamee Eeeeeeeeeeeee Lannister! ....Sends his Rhaegards" - Sry, I'm bored....  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
What's actually important is how you develop these things. "white walkers attacking expedition north of the wall (including Jon, The Hound, etc)" "Dany saves them with dragons, one dragon dies" That isn't bad in itself. How you get to these points is the problem I argue that it's the "becasue" that is missing here. A well-developed "because" based on what we know about the characters and what makes sense given their current level of information + alternative options --> What makes us interested and care about the storyline. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
The logistical problems of that narrative are evident, but I feel they could have handled it by just not rushing. Make a bigger deal of people not believing that the undead are real. Have the some of the lords of the north not be convinced jon is telling the truth. And then a full blown discussion about how it is going to be impossible to convince anyone to the south that they are deal. Maybe has the Night Watch attempt to get an undead and fail. Then the whole things would have seemed more reasonable. And the really bad plan would seem like a desperate last effort. The part about Jon going even though he is King isn't totally crazy. It is rash and dumb, but Kings going into battle is something that happened. Kings do dumb shit and that is why its a bad form of goverment. And Jon has not been king for very long. | ||
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