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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On August 25 2017 02:03 Plansix wrote:
The white walkers plot has always been a weird noose around the series head. It is a compelling plot line right up until it runs into the other, war over the throne part. Because the series needs both of them to resolve at the same time to not feel like "Game of Thrones...and then a war against zombies just because". I really thought the whole thing was going to come to a head when the white walkers broke through the wall and half the north fell to them before everyone grew a brain.
This kind of ties into my biggest issue with this season/last episode.
I think the worst part of the last episode was how weak the night king's army seems to be. The inconsistency of the threat is really off putting.
The show has decided that this threat in the north, 'winter is here', etc is the greatest existential threat to all westeros and it is so important that we're going to upend 7 seasons of story lines around the politics and warfare to capture the iron throne to unite everyone against the dead. Except.. you have 7ish people hold what seems to be thousands and thousands of the army off for multiple nights.
I thought at first maybe it was a trap by the Night King, he let them live to capture a dragon. That doesn't make sense though since the show infers the dead attack once they realize the ice is solid again. Of course this all happens because the hound throws a stone.. not because the army of the dead is at all smart enough to figure it out on their own.
So how is is that an army of thousands that is unable to kill 7 people over multiple nights in a restricted area is the greatest threat to all of mankind? Each hero must have slayed 50+ undead themselves while cold, hungry and in a bad position. How is this even a major threat? Imagine a well trained mounted army, organized armored soldiers in a phalanx etc. Based on what we witnessed last episode, they'd absolutely crush the night kings army.
If you want to completely flip the entire show on its head for some crazy threat beyond the wall, you better fucking make that threat scary.
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Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story.
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On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story.
Hardhome definitely made them scary, as did the brief 1v1 with John and the wight back at Castle Black. These Season 7 zombies, eh, not so much.
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On August 25 2017 03:35 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story. Hardhome definitely made them scary, as did the brief 1v1 with John and the wight back at Castle Black. These Season 7 zombies, eh, not so much.
Episode 1, season 1 was the best and scariest introduction of the White Walkers. That unknown scary mythical power is gone by now.
This is just LOTR style WW--->Sauron/Morgoth, orcs vs Elves, Humans and dwarfs--->Combined forces of Westeros and Essos and a mix of magical creatures used as weapons.
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I think the coolest part of the White Walkers for me is how chill they are.
I like that the Night King is super patient and waits for years to strike. I also like how he coldly acts in a calculating manner. Like when he iced the dragon without a single word and with a frozen expression. It's almost like he either knew it was going to happen or has done it many times before. Sometimes it's nice to have a villain that has no humanity whatsoever.
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Here is the problem with mythical scray enemies you don’t understand: they don’t have motivation. Sauron worked because he was bodyless and is basically a fallen angel meant to pray on human weakness.
Without more to the white walkers, they will continue to detract from the complexity of the show. They need motivation and to want things. There needs to be more to them than just the night king and death to humans. I really want there to be white walkers who don’t want to kill humans and just live in the north, being white walkers.
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Yeah there needs to be more to it than "the children created them". Something which goes a bit deeper and explains the mythology a bit here. Preferably with a twist on how the last long night actually came to an end
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They seem to be setting up for that with Sam and Bran. Maybe the two of them somehow find more information. Maybe Dany and Jon flying way, way, way beyond the wall to find answers or something. Because GRRM would put the answer another 1000 miles north of the wall, just for spite.
But I would like to know how the last time ended and why everyone assumed it would come back. And why everyone seems to think that the giant wall that is way to large for humans to need or build, only job is to keep out wildlings.
Seriously, the weirdest parts of the show is the Night watch not taking the Night King seriously while serving on the most excessive wall in all of creation.
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On August 25 2017 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Here is the problem with mythical scray enemies you don’t understand: they don’t have motivation. Sauron worked because he was bodyless and is basically a fallen angel meant to pray on human weakness.
Without more to the white walkers, they will continue to detract from the complexity of the show. They need motivation and to want things. There needs to be more to them than just the night king and death to humans. I really want there to be white walkers who don’t want to kill humans and just live in the north, being white walkers.
Sauron also worked because he had almost no screentime. Compare the introduction of a white walker between Sams kill in Season 3 and Johns in the last episode. Sam had a buildup of half an episode with a very dramatic "fight" and now its just "oh look a walker lets kill him no problem".
The walkers as villains just suffered because of the popularity of John. His storyline evolves around them so they have to get more screen time so he can get more. Therefor more screentime which is bad for a supposedly mysterius villain.
Villains dont necessarly need big motivations to be great, look at the Joker, it depends on the version but momstly he does it for the laughs.
The walkers died at the peak of their badassery, at hardhome. One of the best TV episodes (if not the) ever but it broke the mystery of the "unbeatable" white walker.
Zombies are just bad villains. Look at The Walking Dead, Season 1 and 2 they were very threatening and now they are just mcguffins for the plot.
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On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story.
What about Hardhome ? It was pretty much the same story expect they attacked unarmed vilagers and unprepared wildlings along side the 'heroes'. Jon Snow and Tormund still killed a bunch of the enemy... Even without dragon glass weapons. The giant was throwing the wights around like toys. The only scary thing about the army of the dead is the numbers. In the last episode the group was in better position, basicaly holding a line. In such situation the numbers advantage is not so evident... And still, the dead overwhelmed them in almost no time.
Again the only scary thing about that army was always its numbers(and of course the intimidation factor). A skilled human army with comparable size(even 1/3) should be able to destroy them. Without the Night King and the white walkers the army is nothing. So the actual threat is the Night King and he looks actually invinsible... which is the exact opposite problem.
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On August 25 2017 06:23 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story. What about Hardhome ? It was pretty much the same story expect they attacked unarmed vilagers and unprepared wildlings along side the 'heroes'. Jon Snow and Tormund still killed a bunch of the enemy... Even without dragon glass weapons. The giant was throwing the wights around like toys. The only scary thing about the army of the dead is the numbers. In the last episode the group was in better position, basicaly holding a line. In such situation the numbers advantage is not so evident... And still, the dead overwhelmed them in almost no time. Again the only scary thing about that army was always its numbers(and of course the intimidation factor). A skilled human army with comparable size(even 1/3) should be able to destroy them. Without the Night King and the white walkers the army is nothing. So the actual threat is the Night King and he looks actually invinsible... which is the exact opposite problem.
The part where they overran the village in seconds. Or when thousands of undead rained off the cliff like water and just got up to fight a second later. Unlike in the recent episode, where it was a mob of undead, that seemed like an ocean. And unstoppable wave of dead human bodies rolling across the landscape with winter at its back.
The pending dread, the release and escape. Jon fighting with the wildling that had said the crows was his lifelong enemy, only to die to the white walker. And that ending. In the boats 50 feet away from the shore, the undead standing on the edge of the water and the night king just lifting his arms and raising everyone who died instantly. That there is no hope against them. To fight them only makes his host stronger. That the night king straight up taunts Jon, because he isn't afraid of them.
The more I think of hardhome, the fewer problems I have with the Night King’s actions at the pond. He doesn’t care about Jon or Dany. He doesn’t care about the dragons beyond wanting one for himself. He wants Dany and Jon to bring their armies north and fight him. He does not fear them at all. I bet dragon fire won't kill him. It might kill other white walkers, but I bet he has no fear of fire.
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I mean yeah he probably doesn't fear anything, but it was still a situation where he could have gotten more than one dragon for example 
Great post though.
You are probably right about dragon fire not killing him, he at least walked through fire last episode which was dragon fire.
Though i guess that would still be different from getting directly attacked tbf.
Random thought: We saw that killing a WW will "kill" the wights he reanimated. One has to assume that another WW could simply reanimate these, no? Not that it matters a lot because the nightsking is the target anyway. (which is imo a little bit lame, i hope the books do that differently)
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On August 25 2017 06:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 06:23 Pr0wler wrote:On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story. What about Hardhome ? It was pretty much the same story expect they attacked unarmed vilagers and unprepared wildlings along side the 'heroes'. Jon Snow and Tormund still killed a bunch of the enemy... Even without dragon glass weapons. The giant was throwing the wights around like toys. The only scary thing about the army of the dead is the numbers. In the last episode the group was in better position, basicaly holding a line. In such situation the numbers advantage is not so evident... And still, the dead overwhelmed them in almost no time. Again the only scary thing about that army was always its numbers(and of course the intimidation factor). A skilled human army with comparable size(even 1/3) should be able to destroy them. Without the Night King and the white walkers the army is nothing. So the actual threat is the Night King and he looks actually invinsible... which is the exact opposite problem. The part where they overran the village in seconds. Or when thousands of undead rained off the cliff like water and just got up to fight a second later. Unlike in the recent episode, where it was a mob of undead, that seemed like an ocean. And unstoppable wave of dead human bodies rolling across the landscape with winter at its back. The pending dread, the release and escape. Jon fighting with the wildling that had said the crows was his lifelong enemy, only to die to the white walker. And that ending. In the boats 50 feet away from the shore, the undead standing on the edge of the water and the night king just lifting his arms and raising everyone who died instantly. That there is no hope against them. To fight them only makes his host stronger. That the night king straight up taunts Jon, because he isn't afraid of them. The more I think of hardhome, the fewer problems I have with the Night King’s actions at the pond. He doesn’t care about Jon or Dany. He doesn’t care about the dragons beyond wanting one for himself. He wants Dany and Jon to bring their armies north and fight him. He does not fear them at all. I bet dragon fire won't kill him. It might kill other white walkers, but I bet he has no fear of fire.
Hardhome was basically a scene from zombie horror movie and the last one was a scene from 300. The zombies are not that scary when you stare at them for a half an episode. Anyways I think that having enemies with brains is actually much more scary than this. As I said the only scary part is the thing with the unlimited power - night king.
As for the vulnerabilities of the night king... I don't think that he has any. After what we saw from him it will be really dumb to see someone defeating him in battle. Most likely GRRM will have his version of "throw the ring into the fire" to deal with the endgame boss.
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On August 25 2017 03:35 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2017 02:25 Plansix wrote:
Hardhome made them scary. When they come raining off that cliff and then all just get up and run, you knew they were unstoppable. But that was almost 2 years ago and we haven't seen them since. This show has a problem that once they removed Jon from the North(which needs to happen), they had no anchor bring further story telling from beyond the wall. The two A plots are 2000 miles apart and most of the people in South A plot are totally unaware they are only 50% of the main story. Hardhome definitely made them scary, as did the brief 1v1 with John and the wight back at Castle Black. These Season 7 zombies, eh, not so much.
The main problem is the nonsensical plan to bring a wight to Cersei. It necessitated weakening the zombies so our small band of heroes could survive. As the show has gone past the books, we've had more instances of named characters surviving against impossible odds.
On August 25 2017 06:17 Plansix wrote:
They seem to be setting up for that with Sam and Bran. Maybe the two of them somehow find more information. Maybe Dany and Jon flying way, way, way beyond the wall to find answers or something. Because GRRM would put the answer another 1000 miles north of the wall, just for spite.
But I would like to know how the last time ended and why everyone assumed it would come back. And why everyone seems to think that the giant wall that is way to large for humans to need or build, only job is to keep out wildlings.
Seriously, the weirdest parts of the show is the Night watch not taking the Night King seriously while serving on the most excessive wall in all of creation.
That wall is pretty much a result of GRRM screwing up and not doing enough research before writing. He visited the real wall that inspired GoT's wall and went "oh shit, it's this small?!"
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Norway28894 Posts
I think they are fairly consistent.. all the 7 guys fighting were such strong fighters that it's plausible for them to hold off a wave. they basically don't die in melee combat against single file normal guys, and now they all got to fight against one enemy at the time. I mean sure it's a stretch by 'realistic' standards but this type of stretch is one almost all action movies ever are permitted to make.  Jon and Thormund did kill a bunch at hardhome too.
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Surprised no one is talking about how pointless the armistice is as well. The reason is so Dany can go North to fight the white walkers... but why does Cersei even matter in that regard? It's not like she's going to try to chase her down while she's up North.
All that's gonna happen is some fan service and a shitty trap done by Cersei to make her seem like a big threat again.
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I'm also puzzled by how they work... they used to be zombie-like, but now there are also skeletor-dudes. When they killed the WW, all but 1 of the wights died. Was he under the control of another WW? So they're controlled by the NK or WW's, but then the one at the lake sees the rock and decides to go for it himself, or was that also following orders?
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The show literally says that they can't march north before dealing with kings landing. Its a big army, they need supplies and stuff.
And lots of wars ended with people sueing for peace.
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On August 25 2017 08:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:I think they are fairly consistent.. all the 7 guys fighting were such strong fighters that it's plausible for them to hold off a wave. they basically don't die in melee combat against single file normal guys, and now they all got to fight against one enemy at the time. I mean sure it's a stretch by 'realistic' standards but this type of stretch is one almost all action movies ever are permitted to make. Jon and Thormund did kill a bunch at hardhome too.
The problem is that the stretch made by every action movie ever is the anti-thesis of the tone Game of Thrones set in early seasons and in the books. They worked hard to show that anyone and everyone can die and won't get saved just because they are popular or because they are heroes. It's a signature part of the story that the show writers have a bad habit of ignoring when they write their own original scenes.
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United States44289 Posts
On August 25 2017 09:04 Plansix wrote:
The show literally says that they can't march north before dealing with kings landing. Its a big army, they need supplies and stuff.
And lots of wars ended with people sueing for peace.
It's indefensible Plansix.
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