Why do you think the "religion stuff" was dumb? I think it could have been better executed but in general i like the plot idea.
if it lasted 5 episodes - okay I would be fine with it. The problem was that it lasted 2 seasons and then we had this whole nonsense with Margaery getting improsined, then tricking the High septon into thinking she had became really religios, but that was just irrelevant as they were killed anyway.
And in this season it turns out Queen Cerseis unpopularity in S6 was irrelevant and has no impact. As a general rule, the longer a story arch drags out, the more significant its consequences should be on the future plot lines. Imagine if the Ned Stark beheading had no impact - everything just went back to how it was before and instead we focussed on a new plot arch.. That's - too some extent - how I feel about the religion stuff in S5-s6.
Remember, that Margaery still could have been murdered by Queen Cersei without introducing religion.
Ok sure i agree with you here but this is about the "execution" imo. You are totally right that there was little impact and that is a problem.
And yes the different storylines need to affect each other to some extent, but they could have even with the bullet points we have now. I don't necessarily agree that it's a problem to have some seperate storylines though, in the end most storylines kinda start that way and only later become more connected. I think as long as the writing in these is good enough it can eb interesting through different means like world building, character development, even new characters being introduced who later become plot relevant somewhere else, etc. For example Arya, i think her being on a mission to kill someone we actually care for would have been decent, i think her "training" itself could have been more interesting though. Sometimes it's about the writing, sometimes it's about the directing. Seeing her getting beaten up by the waif simply wasn't interesting. All this stuff works better in the books because the worldbuilding there is stronger and it's more mystical. I think that's the main problem here.
All this stuff works better in the books because the worldbuilding there is stronger and it's more mystical. I think that's the main problem here.
And I think this is where I disagree with you. Because I think they should have completely abandoned the books after S4 and just thought: "How do we make the most compelling and interesting stories giving the constraint that we need to end the the story in S8 in a specific way."
By making half-books and half-new stuff it became a mess.
That said, the above also implies the writers are somewhat competent at creating a compelling overall story - which doesn't seem to the case.
What the religion subplot got us was Tommen's suicide. If Tommen just died, that'd be sad for Cersei but not really change much. But Tommen killing himself because he couldn't live with a power play that Cersei had herself made, that's pretty huge. In terms of what that means for Cersei herself (being such an awful human that your kids off themselves to get away from you), her stated goals (all this time she's insisted that she's just trying to protect her kids), her relationship with Jaime and so forth.
Tommen's suicide, and the impact that suicide has on Jaime/Cersei, is what justifies the religion subplot. Cersei's anguish, Jaime turning his back on her, and so forth.
Now they didn't actually do any of that. Cersei just bought a new dress and got over it while Jaime banged her. But Tommen's suicide ought to have had some serious payoff.
All this stuff works better in the books because the worldbuilding there is stronger and it's more mystical. I think that's the main problem here.
And I think this is where I disagree with you. Because I think they should have completely abandoned the books after S4 and just thought: "How do we make the most compelling and interesting stories giving the constraint that we need to end the the story in S8 in a specific way."
By making half-books and half-new stuff it became a mess.
That said, the above also implies the writers are somewhat competent at creating a compelling overall story - which doesn't seem to the case.
See i think pretty much anything can work if done well enough. I think Arya's storyline in the show was mediocre because in the end there is no payoff at all. You don't really learn much about the faceless men, there isn't really much mystery stuff going on, etc. It's really bland. Ofc you can also go other routes though. You said she could go with some other faceless man on a mission, sure i like that actually. Though you are probably right that cutting the ties to the books completely would have been the better option if it is clear that you cannot translate it well enough for whatever reason.
What the religion subplot got us was Tommen's suicide. If Tommen just died, that'd be sad for Cersei but not really change much.
That was mostly related to Margaery dying (and his mother obviously being evil).
I see the (supposed) impact of the religion more related to how the general public disliked Queen Cersei --> Which has no impact in the current season.
I think Arya's storyline in the show was mediocre because in the end there is no payoff at all. You don't really learn much about the faceless men, there isn't really much mystery stuff going on, etc. It's really bland.
Sure, but even then 2 seasons is a bit too much. And you are also setting yourself up for a tough challenge by trying to make sense what the faceless men are supposed to be and writing that in an interesting (and understandable) way.
In my opinion introducing religion as a big factor is somewhat comparable to when time-travel was introduced in Lost. I think it just overcomplicates the show unnecasarily and makes it very difficult to be a writer. Sure, if it turns out that there is a big and relevant meaning when it comes to religion and the White Walkers - OK that could be cool.
But how on earth do you connect that? And if there isn't any, then the religion-storyline is also somewhat unrelated to the main plot.
And ceteris-paribus, even if we had a payoff with regards to what the faceless men were, the overall plot would still be better if Arya's plot was related to mereen (and many other main characters).
On August 25 2017 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: I will say it again, you can make any bullet points look decent, the tricky part is to develop it and connect it. Personally i don't see the point in writing our own fanfiction here, the show could have been better by cutting stuff and it could have been better by adding things. Personally i am not someone who really cares a lot about the "plot advancing" in a rapid rate, i care more for the execution of things. Which is why this scene for example is still one of my favorite ones:
But just to respond to a few points you made here:
* Faceless Men sends Arya to a mission to kill someone Dany cares about, e.g. what about killing Daario. This way we could get rid of him and surely they could make that a much more emotionel moment.
So you want her to actually become a faceless man and become noone? I don't think she would get a huge mission otherwise.
So not only would this overall plot structure make Arya and Dany's more interesting and beliveable. It would also make Kings Landing politics alot better instead of this dumb religion stuff.
Why do you think the "religion stuff" was dumb? I think it could have been better executed but in general i like the plot idea.
I actually hate this scene. Not for the scene itself, but because blackfish was a dick to a guy who just lost his dad.
Why do you think the "religion stuff" was dumb? I think it could have been better executed but in general i like the plot idea.
if it lasted 5 episodes - okay I would be fine with it. The problem was that it lasted 2 seasons and then we had this whole nonsense with Margaery getting improsined, then tricking the High septon into thinking she had became really religios, but that was just irrelevant as they were killed anyway.
And in this season it turns out Queen Cerseis unpopularity in S6 was irrelevant and has no impact. As a general rule, the longer a story arch drags out, the more significant its consequences should be on the future plot lines. Imagine if the Ned Stark beheading had no impact - everything just went back to how it was before and instead we focussed on a new plot arch.. That's - too some extent - how I feel about the religion stuff in S5-s6.
Remember, that Margaery still could have been murdered by Queen Cersei without introducing religion.
Honestly, I think the religion arc would have been fine, if they had had a larger fallout as a result of the Sept bombing. I mean, the Queen and the High Sparrow explode, and then the King dies as well. I'd be expecting the city to be thrown into chaos.
I think they could have done something with the remaining Sparrows agitating and causing medium scale riots that Cersei would have put down by force. It would serve as another reminder of Cersei's brutality, and allow a chance to show off Zombie Mountain a bit more. You could also use it as a means to reintroduce Gendry (our man on the ground), and to maybe prime the people of King's Landing to being more receptive to rumors of the Queen coming across the ocean.
One of my complaints is that the state of the city used to be a factor in the politics, but this was dropped after the bombing. It's as though after everyone the people liked died suddenly, they decided to sit down quietly, instead of reverting to their former state of being generally unruly.
I kind of agree with Chris Ryan that the show started turning a little when Jamie and Bronn came out of the water unharmed and unnoticed. Not sure I had had that feeling in GOT before (someone escaping a sure death).
I don't always think "The Watch" guys have good GOT discussions BUT their "Critiquing 'Game of Thrones'" podcast earlier this week was a good listen. As TV guys they focus on that side, but they deal a lot with people who have read the books also (Binge Mode duo mostly).
Who the hell is even in charge of the riverlands nowadays? Officially, it's Petyr, but his claim has zero weight. The Freys are dead too. Are the riverlands just back to being a bunch of scattered houses? Or maybe Edmure can come back from exile once the Lannisters get subdued - but I doubt anyone would accept him after the shit he pulled.
The problems are related to the structure of the books vs the tv show. Book 3 completed a lot of arcs that started in books 1 and 2. Books 4 and 5 created new story arcs that would hopefully be resolved in books 6 and 7. The TV show split book 3 into seasons 3 and 4 because it was a longer book. But they then condensed books 4 and5 into just season 5, with a little bit spilling into season 6.
So we're now at the point of the story that would've been covered by the unfinished books 6 and 7, but a lot of details are missing because the TV show condensed the build up that books 4 and 5 provided. Granted, those two books dragged too much but they could have simply cut entire plot arcs instead of giving us a shortened version of each.
Doing what they did, they could have cut the entire Dorne arc completely from the show. They skipped the Iron Islands in season 5 but somehow decided to add it in season 6. That is not needed either. They could've easily shortened the Arya scenes and got her back to Westeros much faster.
The religion arc would have been much better if they showed us that the reason for it is the discontent of the common folk over the wars of the nobles. But the citizens of King's Landing are cheering Cersei and Euron without a hint of discontent this season.
On August 26 2017 00:57 Hyperbola wrote: Who the hell is even in charge of the riverlands nowadays? Officially, it's Petyr, but his claim has zero weight. The Freys are dead too. Are the riverlands just back to being a bunch of scattered houses? Or maybe Edmure can come back from exile once the Lannisters get subdued - but I doubt anyone would accept him after the shit he pulled.
I'm not sure. I suppose the army of the Vale got into the north by ship (was there any information?), because otherwise according to the maps they mustve passed most of the riverlands, which is unlikely to have happened without any conflicts. And surely Baelish is regarded by the Lannisters as an enemy by now, so I doubt he has any official claim anymore. So it's probably the leftover Freys. By now, there shouldnt be much left to be charge in of anyway.
Why do you think the "religion stuff" was dumb? I think it could have been better executed but in general i like the plot idea.
if it lasted 5 episodes - okay I would be fine with it. The problem was that it lasted 2 seasons and then we had this whole nonsense with Margaery getting improsined, then tricking the High septon into thinking she had became really religios, but that was just irrelevant as they were killed anyway.
And in this season it turns out Queen Cerseis unpopularity in S6 was irrelevant and has no impact. As a general rule, the longer a story arch drags out, the more significant its consequences should be on the future plot lines. Imagine if the Ned Stark beheading had no impact - everything just went back to how it was before and instead we focussed on a new plot arch.. That's - too some extent - how I feel about the religion stuff in S5-s6.
Remember, that Margaery still could have been murdered by Queen Cersei without introducing religion.
Honestly, I think the religion arc would have been fine, if they had had a larger fallout as a result of the Sept bombing. I mean, the Queen and the High Sparrow explode, and then the King dies as well. I'd be expecting the city to be thrown into chaos.
I think they could have done something with the remaining Sparrows agitating and causing medium scale riots that Cersei would have put down by force. It would serve as another reminder of Cersei's brutality, and allow a chance to show off Zombie Mountain a bit more. You could also use it as a means to reintroduce Gendry (our man on the ground), and to maybe prime the people of King's Landing to being more receptive to rumors of the Queen coming across the ocean.
One of my complaints is that the state of the city used to be a factor in the politics, but this was dropped after the bombing. It's as though after everyone the people liked died suddenly, they decided to sit down quietly, instead of reverting to their former state of being generally unruly.
This. They made a huge deal about how the people hated Cersei and the rulers but loved Marge.
That would have been a much better way to introduce Gendry and give some perspective on what the hell was even happening in KL. Although it wouldn't fit in with their "Cersei is totally a legitimate player and needs to be respected" thing that they're insisting upon right now. Instead apparently everyone stopped believing in the Seven when the Sparrow died and they're all cool with the lady who they hated last season.
This season needs to end, because I am looking at the Game of Thrones board game and living card game. Both really dumb purchases I don’t need, but they are both nicely made and people would play them....
I think s1 shouldn't be lumped together with the rest. S2 and S3 were still great, but in my opinion storylines introduced there were somehow "weaker", with the exception of Stannis (I was one of his fanboys). The plot started getting shallow and more reliant on plot twists/shocking events. S4 was more like the current season than S1.
S2 and S3 were still great, but in my opinions storylines introduced there were somehow "weaker", with the exception of Stannis (I was one of his fanboys). The plot started getting shallow and more reliant on plot twists/shocking events. S4 was more like the current season than S1.
EPT
