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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps?
4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
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On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
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Last Jedi is a great movie. While its not on the level of Empire strikes back, it is top 3 in my list. (5 > 3.5 > 8). Being the middle movie, it does have a feel of setting things up for a big finale coming soon in the next movie. But most of the scenes were well shot. Pacing was done well generally for a 2.5 hours movie.
Parents are still more hyped than their kids when watching the movie.
+ Show Spoiler [Bouquets, brickbats and SPOILERS] +
Silent destruction of the Star Destroyer .
Kylo, Rey Snoke scenes on the ship.
Poe getting shot.
YODA!
Too many side characters
Love triange - WTF? It came out of nowhere.
I hate porgs.
Snoke's death was underwhelming.
Leia's Deus Ex Machina - Space survival
First Orders' Flag officers still getting tossed around like rag dolls.
Everyone can be a pilot.
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On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
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On December 14 2017 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids.
And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
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From an in-universe perspective, I don't think either the Empire or the Republic can wipe each other out for good. Each seem tied to a side of the force, albeit in a rather surprising manner: the Empire values discipline and order, yet it is associated with the Dark Side/Sith, whereas it's values are better reflected in the Light Side.
Then again, maybe that is the whole point: balance, both on a large, galactic and/or universal scale, but also on it's lower levels (clusters, stars, nations/factions, people). It could also be that the entire universe is just one big fractal, one where there has to be a balance at any level you look at.
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saw it,but man there is so much happening,i will have to watch it again but this time digital,the 3d is fine but i still prefer the classic.overall i liked it.
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Goddamn, it's already out for all of you? I still have to wait another ~30ish hours till the first screenings.
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In 24h I'll finally be watching it WOOHOO
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On December 14 2017 03:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself. Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids. And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative.
What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon.
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On December 14 2017 05:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 03:13 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2017 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself. Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids. And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series. My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative. What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon.
A New Hope started with no build up. Vader was a fully formed villain at the start. The whole draw of the movie was coming in the middle of what appeared to be a protracted, generation spanning conflict. I could have dealt with less death planet, but I get that they need things to fight on in space.
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On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
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On December 14 2017 06:02 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
There is no generalizing going on. There are is a direct reference to hidden fortress at the beginning of A New Hope. George lucas talked all the time about how he was inspired by samurai films and Kurosawa.
You can't "ripoff" things in art like movies. Its like saying modern shooters are ripping off Doom or Mass effect ripped off gears of war. They arn't real arguments.
I mean the basic film concept of "the heroes journey" is ripped off of antiquity era literature.
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On December 14 2017 06:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 05:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On December 14 2017 03:13 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2017 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself. Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids. And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series. My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative. What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon. A New Hope started with no build up. Vader was a fully formed villain at the start. The whole draw of the movie was coming in the middle of what appeared to be a protracted, generation spanning conflict. I could have dealt with less death planet, but I get that they need things to fight on in space.
A New Hope has the benefit of having zero context to build off of, and starts in media res. The setting is an entirely blank slate for whatever is required for the ongoing plot.
Force Awakens does have context, and is built entirely from an existing setting.
But really, they could've taken any direction they wanted and made it work, they just didn't. It feels like a reboot that was forced to be a sequel, more or less.
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On December 14 2017 06:02 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 00:18 Plansix wrote:On December 13 2017 20:46 Uldridge wrote:On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote:
So pretty much Star Wars? I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely. A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline. Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens. Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
Lucas was a giant Kurosawa fan. Like massive. That is why Darth Vader’s helmet looks like a samurai helmet and they fight with laser swords and talk about eastern mysticism. He also loved WW2 dog fight movies. He mashed them all up into something that was sort of amazing. But if you are aware of what his inspiration was, it becomes pretty obvious that he just ripped the plot out hidden fortress.
Which is fine. Magnificent seven is a great cowboy movie and also a Kurosawa film.
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On December 14 2017 06:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
A New Hope has the benefit of having zero context to build off of, and starts in media res. The setting is an entirely blank slate for whatever is required for the ongoing plot.
Force Awakens does have context, and is built entirely from an existing setting.
But really, they could've taken any direction they wanted and made it work, they just didn't. It feels like a reboot that was forced to be a sequel, more or less.
Echo'ing this. I'd prefer it if there was an episode 6.5 where they'd build it up, or at least did some new universe building, because it simply falls flat and feels cheap as fuck.
ANH had the benefit of dropping you into a new, wondrous environment with all these strange, mystical, exotic things going on. TFA is set in the known universe, so we already know all the stuff, so there shouldn't be all that much exploring to do, but it's basically the exact same journey, trying to give us the exact same moments. It just doesn't work for me. It feels forced and insulting.
1->3 deals with how the strength of the empire was forged; 4->6 was the clash of good and evil and good winning; 7 resets to 4, because they don't have anything original to go. 1->3 is WAY more interesting story wise, even though they completely fucked it up, than TFA.
Why not make a movie about the aftermath, with different parties doing different things, a free for all, since the central power is gone with ultimately the new empire or whatever the fuck it was regaining power in secret. You can even follow fucking Han Solo as the main protagonist here.
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It's been almost 2 years since I saw 7, but isn't it about the aftermath? Granted, there is a time skip, but it does put things in context: you don't just win the war because the big bad died. The Empire is not magically bound to the Emperor and now that he is dead it just disbands. The non-Force related leadership is still there, there are still people who believe in order and/or peace at all costs.
Sure, the rebellion is growing, perhaps going as far as naming itself a Republic again, but the Empire will still be there.
If anything, the Emperor's death formed a vacuum of power which, as 7 revealed, was gobbled up by others.
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On December 14 2017 08:44 akatama wrote:
It's been almost 2 years since I saw 7, but isn't it about the aftermath? Granted, there is a time skip, but it does put things in context: you don't just win the war because the big bad died. The Empire is not magically bound to the Emperor and now that he is dead it just disbands. The non-Force related leadership is still there, there are still people who believe in order and/or peace at all costs.
Sure, the rebellion is growing, perhaps going as far as naming itself a Republic again, but the Empire will still be there.
If anything, the Emperor's death formed a vacuum of power which, as 7 revealed, was gobbled up by others.
Aftermath story would be interesting, but they just skipped past that and jumped to the 1:1 replacement story.
Dropping in Snokes (or whatever his clowny name is) in from nowhere is basically prime example. Even the expository opening crawl doesn't bother mentioning him. Just some guy that was always there, but bigger and dark-lordier than Palpatine.
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28092 Posts
They shouldn't have erased all of the canon shit that happened after EP 6. Now there's a bunch of stuff that happened just "cause".
I mean the majority of people watching the show wouldn't have known the previous aftermath canon material, but they aren't the ones complaining about the movie 
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It is an entire galaxy. Did anyone really believe that there wasn't another evil force using dude just waiting to his shot?
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EPT
