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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On January 03 2018 09:39 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote:
Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it. What's with this idea that Snoke is the main villain? Show nested quote +On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote:
But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing?
Yes, we are.
I don't root for Rey so yeah Snoke might even be the main villain for me. Rey is such a shit character she makes me miss Jar Jar Binks. At least he has flaws... like talking too much.. and sticking his tongue into places you shouldn't stick your tongue. Also he has a home city and history of being hated in this city, then he shows his people that he is worthy by the end of the movie. Weow.. what a great character arc, these new movies have no character arcs, I guess because they want to keep the attention of children. Every 5 min there's a forced laughter feel good moment, just so they can have something completely illogical happen and hope you won't notice, because you were busy laughing or watching some explosion.
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watched the movie a couple days ago
it was terrible
visuals were nice though
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All I know is they fucked Luke Skywalker. (I'm glad for the 2 suns peaceful moment i guess. (holy shit they fucked luke)) It was enjoyable for todays standards , but wtf the story. Does Rian Johnson want to intentionally fuck shit up for J.J. Abrams? gl for episode 9, damn man..... damn. It's justa movie. I'm gonna pretend that the books are canon and disney is batshit.
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On January 03 2018 14:20 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2018 09:39 hexhaven wrote:On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote:
Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it. What's with this idea that Snoke is the main villain? On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote:
But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing?
Yes, we are. I don't root for Rey so yeah Snoke might even be the main villain for me. Rey is such a shit character she makes me miss Jar Jar Binks. At least he has flaws... like talking too much.. and sticking his tongue into places you shouldn't stick your tongue. Also he has a home city and history of being hated in this city, then he shows his people that he is worthy by the end of the movie. Weow.. what a great character arc, these new movies have no character arcs, I guess because they want to keep the attention of children. Every 5 min there's a forced laughter feel good moment, just so they can have something completely illogical happen and hope you won't notice, because you were busy laughing or watching some explosion.
Those "forced jokes every 5 minutes" were in the OT as well.
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But the OT in general stayed serious during serious moments. TLJ often screws itself by putting in something funny. Luke is the prime example for this with light saber over shoulder, dusting off after atat-barrage, or milking the Alien...
And there is basically every Fin scene...
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The worst was the fucking little birds. Chewbacca should have just ate the cooked ones and we never see another one again.
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On January 03 2018 22:56 Atreides wrote:
The worst was the fucking little birds. Chewbacca should have just ate the cooked ones and we never see another one again.
but think of all the merch they wouldn't be able to sell? /s
i'm with you 100%.
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On January 03 2018 22:41 Velr wrote:
But the OT in general stayed serious during serious moments. TLJ often screws itself by putting in something funny. Luke is the prime example for this with light saber over shoulder, dusting off after atat-barrage, or milking the Alien...
And there is basically every Fin scene...
It's funny because i didn't think any of that was bad for the tone of the movie at all. What was kinda bad was bb8 and hux here and there.
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I mean sure there was humour in prior Star Wars movies, but it is usually just a character staying true to what he is and he gets kind of a cartoon moment where everyone goes: "That's so Jar Jar..  " and they go back to the main story, or it's a weird, but creative looking alien, reminding you that you are watching Star Wars. Here we have real story line moments undermined completely by some upside down joke only designed to catch you of guard and make you chuckle. It won't be as funny the second time watching it, because you know it's gonna happen, but even then some humour is still completely acceptable to have. Luke throwing the light saber that we have followed throughout Star Wars 2 to now Star Wars 8 is however not just a light joke, it completely goes against his character and it even goes completely against the moment. We left Star Wars 7 seeing Luke with tears in his eyes, clearly this is a huge moment for all Star Wars fans, but we just get a "just kiddin' lol" moment instead. Why is this? is it really worth it to sacrifice 6 films of build up just for a "gotcha" moment? comedians often use jokes that are just designed to surprise, it's an effective way to steal a chuckle, but just because you made the audience laugh in the cinema doesn't make it either acceptable, nor the most effective way to captivate your audience. Heck I laughed at Leia flying, but that does not mean that I think it was a good moment in the film.
Regardless of the humour in the film, the film completely fails to deliver a cohesive story..
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I liked it a lot better on second viewing. There were a lot of subplots coalescing. I still think Rose is a terrible character. Snoke was a bad villain. The rise and fall of General Haldo was kind of dumb. The casino scene could've been a lot cooler than it actually was.
But I liked the moral ambiguity theme throughout the movie and I thought the action scenes were typical Star Wars badassery. Seeing Phasma's face was fucking cool. Maybe i'm in the minority but I really like Kylo Ren's character, even if his pants are a little too high.
Oh, and the movie was hilarious. My favorite line was the Jaku diss by Luke
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Canada11574 Posts
After listening to CP Grey's review, I think I figured out another reason I didn't care about the Rebels. I already knew that their commanders irritated me to no end. But I didn't care about the rank and file... and it's because the movie is actively telling me the rank and file Rebels are irrelevant... because every dramatic moment is undercut by a joke.
I will give it this- the movie had quite a few funny moments. But the problem is the film is allergic to pathos/ tragedy. The main offender is when the Rebel hangar is blown up- tons of Rebels dies, but the film immediately pivots to a funny, funny joke with BB-8 putting himself back together. There's no sense of loss- it's just a huge explosion and then a humorous distraction from the deaths. The film does not tell you to care about the loss of life.
By contrast, we know nothing about Alderaan. It's just a vaguely earth-like planet, but we care about it being destroyed because Leia cares... and Ben Kenobi feels the death of the planet. The movie treats the destruction seriously. Similarly, we get like a minute introduction with Luke's friend Biggs and you hardly know any of the pilots except by facial recognition and call-sign. But their deaths aren't undercut by funny jokes, but are treated seriously- like the deaths matter.
It's actually pretty similar to how Marvel does their stories- lots of spectacle and big action moments and tons of jokes, but very little tragedy and introspection. Even a very cool moment with Luke and R2 projecting the old message is undercut with a joke "that was a cheap shot'. It's funny- I laughed. But anything heartfelt or moving was broken at that point. It would've been a far more powerful scene if it lasted longer and then ended with no dialogue at all, just non-verbal acting. It wouldn't be funny, but you'd get something else, something less forgettable and more lasting.
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United States12248 Posts
On January 06 2018 16:46 Falling wrote:
After listening to CP Grey's review, I think I figured out another reason I didn't care about the Rebels. I already knew that their commanders irritated me to no end. But I didn't care about the rank and file... and it's because the movie is actively telling me the rank and file Rebels are irrelevant... because every dramatic moment is undercut by a joke.
I will give it this- the movie had quite a few funny moments. But the problem is the film is allergic to pathos/ tragedy. The main offender is when the Rebel hangar is blown up- tons of Rebels dies, but the film immediately pivots to a funny, funny joke with BB-8 putting himself back together. There's no sense of loss- it's just a huge explosion and then a humorous distraction from the deaths. The film does not tell you to care about the loss of life.
By contrast, we know nothing about Alderaan. It's just a vaguely earth-like planet, but we care about it being destroyed because Leia cares... and Ben Kenobi feels the death of the planet. The movie treats the destruction seriously. Similarly, we get like a minute introduction with Luke's friend Biggs and you hardly know any of the pilots except by facial recognition and call-sign. But their deaths aren't undercut by funny jokes, but are treated seriously- like the deaths matter.
It's actually pretty similar to how Marvel does their stories- lots of spectacle and big action moments and tons of jokes, but very little tragedy and introspection. Even a very cool moment with Luke and R2 projecting the old message is undercut with a joke "that was a cheap shot'. It's funny- I laughed. But anything heartfelt or moving was broken at that point. It would've been a far more powerful scene if it lasted longer and then ended with no dialogue at all, just non-verbal acting. It wouldn't be funny, but you'd get something else, something less forgettable and more lasting.
I agree, and I think the primary misstep here is that the movie is self-aware. The original Star Wars movie had no foundation, a nonexistent baseline interest level, and most importantly, no fanbase. It constructed those serious moments because it had to.
This movie, by contrast, has a ton of in-jokes for fans, formulaic slapstick, and a tongue-in-cheek approach such that it constantly reminds you "this is a Star Wars movie". People want more Star Wars movies, but they don't want Star Wars movies that are aware that they're Star Wars movies. It's the same problem I had with the prequels.
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On January 01 2018 23:21 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, just popping in to say one more thing. Leia's space flight was badly executed as a scene, but there was nothing particularly unbelievable about Leia having that power.
I suggest you guys watch Rebels S03E02. Kanan does exactly the same thing. He's a trained force user, and he does it consciously, but it's not at all farfetched that Leia can force pull herself back to safety as an unconscious adrenaline-fueled effort kicks in to save her life.
And nobody calls Rebels out on giving their force users unbelievable powers. Only helicopter lightsabers (which are unbelievably stupid) are mentioned as particularly egregious.
Like you said, Kanan is a trained force user. It's not the only time in his entire time on screen that he used the force. I think most people would be more accepting of Leia's moment if she ever used the force before or after that. It's a bit jarring that the Emperor couldn't force fly when he was thrown over the edge by Vader, nor was Mace Windu able to force fly to save himself, but untrained Leia can do it while unprotected in space after an explosion, then never bothers to use the force again and no one addresses what happened in any way.
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Honestly, Space Leia was just straight up a bad scene, “suspension of disbelief” or no. I mean it doesn’t help but the entire scene just screams cringe.
Also, Rebels isn’t movie-quality material. “It worked in Rebels” just isn’t justification for a bad scene.
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You know I can see how the quality of the general story line is up to interpretation but I don't see how anyone can defend the fact that this movie destroyed or neglected so much of what the first movie tried to set up. Does Disney truly not understand the value of a coherent story arch? Do they really think it's good writing to essentially wipe away the countless hours of set up for big reveals for two of the most important characters just like that?
I guess seen as an independent movie a different audience might enjoy this but as a part two of a trilogy I can't understand how they could let this get released.
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The director basically said there is no pre-written story arc for this trilogy
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
Rian Johnson: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
So if it feels like they are making things up as they go, it's because they are.
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Seems like something you shouldn't do unless your name is Quentin Tarantino...
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I think they made largely the same mistake we did: assuming that because Star Wars OT had three different directors, that it'd work out the same in this case. To be honest I think what we're missing in all this is the creative leadership - i.e. that of George Lucas - that makes the story all come together. As prone to bouts of stupid as he may be, he is the original storyteller of the series and he has a much better sense for how the story can reasonably progress than any other person. And the original directors built upon his creative direction to give life to merely the bare roots of the general overarching plot. I think Abrams or Johnson would both do a fine job if someone else had made the creative core focus of the story but despite the fact that Abrams didn't do a bad job (Johnson definitely did) neither captured the essence of the story so well.
Now, would he be so great right now, years later when he isn't known for being so invested into the making of Star Wars? Not really, which is probably a good reason to retire Star Wars. Money alone makes that less viable.
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I would just remind everyone that Han Solo was frozen in carbonite because they didn’t know if Ford would agree to a third movie. I think the whole plan for Revenge of the Jedi was “Another death star and then the Rebels win.” I’ll take a Star Wars movie that surprises me any day, TBH.
I also find it odd everyone takes Kylo telling Rey her parents were no one at face value. He could be telling the truth. But he also could have been full of shit.
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Same was true with "I am your father" too though.
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EPT
