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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
Finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes. Acting, Action scenes, music top notch. Finally a good star wars movie again! Edit: Did I really just read a feminism debate!? What's wrong with you, are movies not allowed to have female main characters?? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Same applies for male main characters of course. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Which isn't nearly as bad as the rest of the female leads, including Space Leia and the command and support staff of the Resistance fleet. Those characters seem to be entirely set up to make Poe look like a chump even though he was doing the right thing in the situation that was presented to him. Upon rewatch I have to say that the twists were really all this movie had going for it. Once I knew all of them there was nothing really left to this movie but an empty shell of "omg plot twist" moves that just don't hold any value on their own merit. This movie was definitely a severe downgrade from E7 even though that movie as well had a nontrivial quantity of flaws. This is just Expanded Universe writing where every author wants to just do their own thing they think is cool and says a giant "fuck you" to continuity and shared storytelling. One author out of dozens did that part well, and out of two attempts in the Disneyverse one royally fucked it up and the other did an acceptable, if not stellar, job. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke. EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg). Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10825 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14060 Posts
On December 31 2017 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke. EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg). Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship. The death scene for Han is worlds better then the death scene for Luke. Ones lit with light well and comes after a logical storyline while the other comes out of no where and raises more questions then it answers. I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have. The Ray + Ren against the red guard was more like the prequels then anything. Over coordinated fight scene without any emotion vs the fight at the end of TFA in the snow and the change in light. And the ending. In TFA you have this momentous reveal that luke is still around and ray is handing him his lightsaber while the first order has been hit hard but has a big bad waiting in the wings still. TLJ you have a dozen people in the falcon vs a first order that's already established to not have anything that can match ray but apparently is in control of the galaxy maybe who knows. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On December 31 2017 06:20 Sermokala wrote: I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship. Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all. I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal? The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On December 31 2017 06:20 Sermokala wrote: I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship. The death scene for Han is worlds better then the death scene for Luke. Ones lit with light well and comes after a logical storyline while the other comes out of no where and raises more questions then it answers. I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have. The Ray + Ren against the red guard was more like the prequels then anything. Over coordinated fight scene without any emotion vs the fight at the end of TFA in the snow and the change in light. And the ending. In TFA you have this momentous reveal that luke is still around and ray is handing him his lightsaber while the first order has been hit hard but has a big bad waiting in the wings still. TLJ you have a dozen people in the falcon vs a first order that's already established to not have anything that can match ray but apparently is in control of the galaxy maybe who knows. Do you seriously want "explanation or introduction" for every single thing that people can do with the force ? It's magic... it does a lot of stuff(telekinesis, mind reading, improves dueling skills, mind control... virgin birth). Now we learned that Leia can create air bubble around her body, is that so unbelievable ? Luke's death makes sense, if you payed attention. "You don't need Luke Skywalker. What did you think was going to happen here? Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and take down the whole First Order? Go away." - this is what Luke said when Rey asked him for help. Then when everyone gave up, he does exactly that and gives birth to a new hope in the galaxy. The kids at the end were telling that story - how Luke Skywalker stood alone against the whole first order. I think that it's pretty much established by now that Rey and Kylo are two of the strongest force users. Again quote: "I've seen this raw strength only once before, with Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now." And you are surprised that she moved some rocks ? And yes the first order controlls the galaxy. They have giant fleet (40 or so star destroyers), while the New Republic tried to demilitarize the galaxy and their small fleets got destroyed by the Starkiller base. I know that it is not said in this movie (except for the first line "The FIRST ORDER reigns"), but that is more of a problem with the first movie - it didn't establish the starting positions well enough. | ||
Falling
Canada11381 Posts
I don't really have a problem with Rey, but I've already detailed my complaints about Rose and Huldo (and for that matter, Hux and Finn and pretty much anyone on the Rebel side.) I personally don't see how Episode VIII is original. Episode VII repeats IV, but does so competently. (Make biggest source of disappointment when watching for the first time was the introduction of the Starkiller Base.) Episode VIII... I can't get it out of my head how pretty much every scene is either from V or VI, but in random order. It really seems like a Frankenstein plot of the latter Original Trilogy, but with all the stitching showing. It's quite frankly a mess as far as I'm concerned. Do you seriously want "explanation or introduction" for every single thing that people can do with the force ? It's magic... it does a lot of stuff(telekinesis, mind reading, improves dueling skills, mind control... virgin birth). Now we learned that Leia can create air bubble around her body, is that so unbelievable ? Sort of. There's another useful idea for what makes a satisfying narrative. Sanderson's First Law of Magic An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic. Generally, speaking this is a useful way of thinking about pretty much any sort of special power, whether super hero, magical, psyonics, the Force. If you are using the magic to solve problems, you generally want the reader/ viewer to know what the hero can do before they do it. In essence, you are giving them a tool set, and the interesting thing is to see how they use that tool set- hopefully in creative ways (fast healing, claws, no aging, etc for Wolverine). The Harry Potter books are usually pretty good about revealing the handful of spells that will be used in that book before they are used. Hell, although it gets silly, it's a little bit like every James Bond scene with Q. It's a little too specific and too on the nose in the Bond series, but the idea is right. Reveal your Chekhov' Guns and proceed to use them in creative ways throughout the film. This is pretty much every magic system designed by authors with engineering/ physics backgrounds - rules based magic Whereas, if you do not intend to use the magic to solve problems, but only create them, the powers can remain very mysterious and surprising. The old Faerie stories of Middle English are like this, as are the Lord of the Rings. The big trap writers run into if their heroes use mysterious magic to solve problems, is it starts feeling very convenient, Deus Ex Machina. Run into a problem, go to the grab-bag of mysterious magic and voila, problem solved. Now it can be used without explanation initially and only occasionally, but then you need a pretty good after the fact explanation. The other thing, you have to watch out for, is handing out too many special powers without considering the consequences. Like, once they have that power and it's fairly easy to use, why would they not use it always? (Which is also why, as cool as the hyperspace destruction was really cool, it really opened up a can of worms by weaponizing hyperspace. Small, automated suicide ships that blast into hyperspace on a collision course should logically be the next military revolution in this universe after that.) Having said that, I do think there was some intro to cross distance communication that will kill you, or something. (I assume that's what happened to Luke? Too much Force?) Hard to remember with only one viewing. | ||
hexhaven
Finland955 Posts
On December 31 2017 06:20 Sermokala wrote: I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have. None of these are logic errors though. On December 31 2017 07:44 Falling wrote: Having said that, I do think there was some intro to cross distance communication that will kill you, or something. (I assume that's what happened to Luke? Too much Force?) Hard to remember with only one viewing. Luke mentions earlier in the movie that projecting vast distances would kill the Force user. Another interesting thing to note is that generally every new Star Wars movie has had a new Force power used by at least one of the characters. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 31 2017 06:46 Charoisaur wrote: Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all. To quote South Park, "That's not an idea, that's a twist." Twists are only temporarily interesting. \ On December 31 2017 06:46 Charoisaur wrote: Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal? The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great. Luke's Astral projection as a power is not unbelievable, just bad writing because he dies anyways, so its intentionally making his death less heroic because the "coolest part", him surviving the massive AT-AT onslaught, was not all that physically heroic. We've seen Kylo and Darth stop lasers in the air, if he is powerful enough to have a new power, why not just make him have an upgrade to an old power which also makes his sacrifice more meaningful? Regarding Leia. Her power is one that would have been useful throughout the series for just about everyone. Luke in his falling scene in Cloud City, The Emperor in ROTJ, dozens of prequels space battles (the could have chased Greiovius outside the ship!). Now Leia, non-Jedi, is the master of a new, extremely powerful skill? Bad writing and implausible. These are simply easy discontinuities to point out (just like how light speed ramming invalidates all past space battles). The core problem with the movie is that it has a good main plot with Kylo, Rey, & Luke that doesn't get enough time and is broken up too much, because it desires to dedicate a lot of time to two sideplots run by idiots. The Resistance leadership is incompetent, has a bad plan that the writer wants us to pretend would have been a good plan, but we can't because it is truly stupid, yet that conflict between 2 stupid characters gets lots of screentime. Plus there is a second sidequest between two more stupid characters that is not only pointless in the end, but also requires suspension of disbelief (and not in the "this is fantasy way" in the, "within this fantasy I now need to re-suspend disbelief because they make such bad choices" way). | ||
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hexhaven
Finland955 Posts
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Luke's Astral projection as a power is not unbelievable, just bad writing because he dies anyways, so its intentionally making his death less heroic because the "coolest part", him surviving the massive AT-AT onslaught, was not all that physically heroic. We've seen Kylo and Darth stop lasers in the air, if he is powerful enough to have a new power, why not just make him have an upgrade to an old power which also makes his sacrifice more meaningful? Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance. On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Regarding Leia. Her power is one that would have been useful throughout the series for just about everyone. Luke in his falling scene in Cloud City, The Emperor in ROTJ, dozens of prequels space battles (the could have chased Greiovius outside the ship!). Now Leia, non-Jedi, is the master of a new, extremely powerful skill? Bad writing and implausible. How would Leia pulling herself through vacuum help out in a fight against Grievous? On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: These are simply easy discontinuities to point out (just like how light speed ramming invalidates all past space battles).. Uh, okay then. | ||
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Falling
Canada11381 Posts
Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance. I just don't think it's a very cool way to go. Like, pick one: either he sacrifices himself by physically showing up, or he tricks Kylo with a Force projection (and to make it not too powerful, he needs to be on the salt planet). But his shenanigans buys time and he escapes with the rest. You can even have his Force ascendancy in the third film, but his journey was too abrupt for me to buy this as a satisfying ending. He was still the grumpy 'I won't train anyone', a tree burns down, he gets rapped on the head, and suddenly he's one with the Force? We needed more time for personal revelation for it to be anything but a cheap death. He's the Henry Gunther of the Star Wars universe. Survive all the trench warfare, the gas, the tanks, the machine guns, and get shot by a random patrol a minute before the Armistice is signed to end WWI. It's a end- as in, doesn't war suck- a sort GRRM death, but it isn't a satisfying death for The Jedi Master of the Star Wars universe. They tried to have their cake and eat it too, but the two ideas are at odds with each other. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 31 2017 08:57 hexhaven wrote: Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance. How would Leia pulling herself through vacuum help out in a fight against Grievous? Uh, okay then. All previous death stars and star destroyers could be killed from out of visual range by putting LS engines onto asteroids and ramming. Like an unpredictable version of what kicks off the plot in Starship Troopers. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14060 Posts
On December 31 2017 06:46 Charoisaur wrote: Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all. Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal? The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great. Have you seen Harry potter or Game of thrones? Do you think anyone complained that the movies were worse beacuse they knew what was going to happen at the end? Do you think you don't know the ending of half the movies and TV shows before you even go into the movie? I'm sorry If you're that unimaginative that you can't enjoy things if they're not completely brand new. I like movies with quality I don't care as much about the content as long as its good. And TLJ was objectivly poor in many areas. You are so unimaginative that you can't imagine how ignoring the vacuum of space and moving around space at will might be effective at solving all the problems you might face. Its not just that these are terrible ideas but that they damage the property to the point where you can't do things later for no better reason then you think going against peoples expectations is quality in it of itself. No space battles work previously or afterwords when you can just hyperspace ram everything. The sacrifice of the bombers in the start of the movies is pointless now when they could have just sat home and one bomber ship could have taken out the dreadnought no problem. Having an agreeable power levels that doens't invalidate most of the cast is hugely important. Justice league is shit beacuse super man and the flash are so overpowered compared to everyone else that there isn't a point for them to team up. And the flash only has one of the powers super man does so even he doesn't have a reason to be in the movie. The hope everyone has by the lie that luke stood alone against the new order and survived is perverse at best. Nitpicky would be asking why the bombers are able to do anything at all considering how long it takes for their bombs to exit the bomber and how easily it would be for the first bomb to blow up the bomb above it and so on until the bomber blows up delivering a single bomb. Nit picking would be asking why the ground around lukes feet was magically unharmed throughout the massive barrage that was leveled in his direction. Nit picking would be why kylo was knocked out by the explosion of the lightsaber much longer then ray. Nit picking would be why the ship they landed on a public beach was still there when they were able to make their escape later on the casino world. Nit picking would be asking why no one discovered the exit tunnel when they were looking around for what the base had. Nit picking would be asking why The first order with all their fleets didn't just jump their ships ahead of the rebels and cornered them. Nit picking would be asking why snoke was unaware of the galaxy power shifting technology was installed on his ship and why it was never used before this movie, nit picking would be insisting that the next movie will have to introduce some way of this technology to be lost forever or else the property can't seriously move forward. Nit picking would be how there is no real legitimacy to the rebellion anymore and there is no way for the rebellion to continue because they just have a dozen or more people on a single tramp freighter. Nit picking would be to breakdown the advanced martial arts techniques that ray uses that would take extensive training to do (that the actor did with a martial arts master) that she learned in a matter of hours compared to the moves she did in the previous movie. Nit picking would be asking why everyones okay with the rolly droid being capable of useing a walker platform to commit murder. Nit picking would be asking how fast DJ got across the room loaded his payment from the first order started up his ship and got out of the way all in time to avoid the hyperspace ram attack. thats just the shit I could think of off the top of my head. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
The point about light-speed ramming invalidating previous space battles is true though, during the movie I thought "If it's so easy to take out a ship why doesn't everyone do it?" Maybe the big ships like the deathstar have too powerful shields to get destroyed by that and it's not worth it to take out usual ships - except like in this scene when it's abandoned anyway. Rey's Martial arts prowess seems illogical too but it was already established that she's very powerful and we saw her training alone (the scene where she was swinging her lightsaber while Luke was watching). | ||
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Sermokala
United States14060 Posts
Tlj isnt an innovative story its an incoherent chase scene that delivers less story development and more destruction to plot then any movie ive ever seen. It values gotcha moments more than good writing and is more poorly edited then suicide squad. It shows contempt for star wars and its fans at everything turn. I think all my problems with ray would be solved if she had a double sided lightsaber almost like her staff. | ||
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hexhaven
Finland955 Posts
On December 31 2017 10:29 Sermokala wrote: The hope everyone has by the lie that luke stood alone against the new order and survived is perverse at best. Nitpicky would be asking why the bombers are able to do anything at all considering how long it takes for their bombs to exit the bomber and how easily it would be for the first bomb to blow up the bomb above it and so on until the bomber blows up delivering a single bomb. Nit picking would be asking why the ground around lukes feet was magically unharmed throughout the massive barrage that was leveled in his direction. Nit picking would be why kylo was knocked out by the explosion of the lightsaber much longer then ray. Nit picking would be why the ship they landed on a public beach was still there when they were able to make their escape later on the casino world. Nit picking would be asking why no one discovered the exit tunnel when they were looking around for what the base had. Nit picking would be asking why The first order with all their fleets didn't just jump their ships ahead of the rebels and cornered them. Nit picking would be asking why snoke was unaware of the galaxy power shifting technology was installed on his ship and why it was never used before this movie, nit picking would be insisting that the next movie will have to introduce some way of this technology to be lost forever or else the property can't seriously move forward. Nit picking would be how there is no real legitimacy to the rebellion anymore and there is no way for the rebellion to continue because they just have a dozen or more people on a single tramp freighter. Nit picking would be to breakdown the advanced martial arts techniques that ray uses that would take extensive training to do (that the actor did with a martial arts master) that she learned in a matter of hours compared to the moves she did in the previous movie. Nit picking would be asking why everyones okay with the rolly droid being capable of useing a walker platform to commit murder. Nit picking would be asking how fast DJ got across the room loaded his payment from the first order started up his ship and got out of the way all in time to avoid the hyperspace ram attack. thats just the shit I could think of off the top of my head. Boy do I have a Youtube series for you | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6794 Posts
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