EPTStar Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Page 38
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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
On January 14 2018 18:50 B.I.G. wrote: I never thought a movie could upset me but this one did. Is this how the prequel haters felt? Suddenly I feel so much more sympathy for their point of view.. despite being bad it's still better than the prequels by far. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14151 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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hexhaven
Finland964 Posts
Going to be interesting how this relates to Solo. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14151 Posts
On January 15 2018 05:37 LegalLord wrote: Well... we might be unhappy but Disney definitely managed to milk its money’s worth for the pitiful $4 billion it paid for Lucasfilm. Keep in mind it wasnt just lucasfilm they bought but Skywalker studios the og special effects studio for all the marvel movies as well. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17776 Posts
On January 15 2018 07:09 Sermokala wrote: Keep in mind it wasnt just lucasfilm they bought but Skywalker studios the og special effects studio for all the marvel movies as well. That would be Industrial Light & Magic, not Skywalker studios. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
On January 15 2018 03:44 Sermokala wrote: Let's not get ahead of ourselves space wizard leia was bad but it's not midoclorians and nothing comes close to jar jar. I was too young to feal strongly about what Star wars should be when the prequels came out but I feel to me what TLJ did to the story arch is similar to the prequels deciding you know what we don't like Vader. Let's give him minimal screen time and make it all about how Padme is awesome. Cringe worthy lines, bad acting, and understandably annoying needless additions (like Jar Jar) at least didn't damage the overall story line in my humble opinion. | ||
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akatama
Romania982 Posts
I love how Luke was treated in the movie. While I have not been much into the EU, to me it did seem to portray Luke as a perfect Jedi, a man who truly mastered himself and became a beacon for a new generation. TLJ does the amazing thing of showing him to still be a flawed man. Yes, he conquered his own inner torments, but fact of the matter is he has no clue about teaching others. He thought Ben would undergo a similar journey and, boy, he was wrong. The scene where he holds the lightsaber above his head was perfect: a moment of weakness and doubt from the master coupled with a scared apprentice. This is where Luke fails because he doesn't know how to deal with the situation. How could he? A great take on the character put in contrast with his amazing control of the Force. Yes, you might be a super mega awesome Jedi but you still are a flawed human being. The next good bit was the throne room scene. Firstly it established Snoke as a powerful sith lord, taking away my main criticism of the previous movie (a Star Wars movie without a strong Dark Side antagonist is meh at best), a Palpatine wannabe yet way over the top. In short, a proud man who nudged his way into the vacuum of power left after RotJ and now believes he is the true master of the galaxy. His ego is justified in my eyes. The only weak part of the scene was showing the lightsaber nudging. It gave everything away too soon. Kylo Ren played his hand well: he gave his master what he wanted while furthering his own agenda, exactly the thing sith usually do. He did the same thing with Rey, feeding her doubts and fears like any good dark lord should. It made the turning scene feel appropriate and, in my view, way better than anything Vader ever did to Luke. Overall I feel like the film tried to play on the usual Star Wars tropes and managed to juggle them quite effectively. Episodes 1-6 showed us cunning, scheming and plotting antagonists. It is a bit of an irony, as Jedi were said to be the rational ones whereas Sith give in to their passions. TLJ turns that around: the antagonists are bordering on crazy and the heroes are fallible people. | ||
Falling
Canada11569 Posts
Lampshade or foreshadow your new technology with visual scenes rather telling us about it- it feels more contrived otherwise. Lampshade or set-up the fact that the fleet has no fuel for some unknown reason- and that they jumped into the middle of nowhere on their first jump... before they knew they were being tracked... and then proceeded to fly for 18 hours to planet they were trying to get to. Why didn't they jump directly to the planet like every other time in Star Wars? (They didn't know they would be tracked until after they jumped 18 hours out from their target.) There can be a good reason- so give it. Or else the entire thing feels contrived. But I think Skywalker is portrayed as a coward or incredibly selfish, completely contrary to who he is in the Original. Kenobi and Yoda had the excuse that the entire galaxy was out to kill them. The Emperor had solidified his hold on the Empire and declared the Jedi enemies of the state, wiped out the Jedi and defeated Yoda. As far as I can tell, Luke peaces out when the Republic is still in a strong position, and instead of fixing his mistake of creating a new Darth Vader (hunting him down and either imprisoning or killing him), he goes off to sulk and die. It makes sense to want to kill Kylo and then peace out, but not before. The Jedi must end? How is he fixing anything while Kylo is running around? The Sith are back buddy- go down in a suicidal attack if you must. How can it get much worse than having two Dark-side users back with the same appetite for planetary destruction? Is it too much to blame the destruction of the Republic and the Resistance, and the death of Han Solo all on Luke? Maybe- but it's hard not to, when you consider how much he's shirking from his own problem. And then in the end, he distracts for two minutes and then becomes one with the Force... still leaving his mess for everyone else. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Lampshade or foreshadow your new technology with visual scenes rather telling us about it- it feels more contrived otherwise. Lampshade or set-up the fact that the fleet has no fuel for some unknown reason- and that they jumped into the middle of nowhere on their first jump... before they knew they were being tracked... and then proceeded to fly for 18 hours to planet they were trying to get to. Why didn't they jump directly to the planet like every other time in Star Wars? (They didn't know they would be tracked until after they jumped 18 hours out from their target.) There can be a good reason- so give it. Or else the entire thing feels contrived. My impression was that they were planning on jumping to nowhere (safest place to be, you'd basically have to know the exact coordinates to find them), then broadcast for help and find somewhere safe to go and regroup; it was very much an emergency departure and reasonable that "jump to this pre-defined spot" was the standard operating procedure. It's unclear to me how Luke is more cowardly or selfish and Kenobi isn't; if it weren't for Leia forcibly dragging Kenobi back into the fight he would have just spent his whole life hanging out on Tatoonie keeping Luke safe without doing anything to fix his own mess of Darth Vader. At least Luke had some actual growth or revelations on the Jedi's responsibilities during that time. -------- In general I really like what they did with Luke and the film as a whole (even if some scenes/bits could have been a lot better). It's pretty great to see the film call bullshit on the blockbuster hero and the culture/persona that heroes like Luke (and all the others after him) created. It's also an interesting contrast to The Empire Strikes Back. In ESB as great as the plot was; it always felt like the heroes were doing everything right but the cards were just stacked against them so they ran into trouble. I really like that in TLJ we get to see our heroes make decisions that are believably made, but end up being very poor decisions and that's what leads us to a bleak ending that sets up the next film much like ESB did. | ||
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Falling
Canada11569 Posts
What I mean is that they actually tried- everything was going down, Yoda and Kenobi tried to take out the Sith and failed... and by that point they'd completely lost. All the known galaxy was under the control of the Emperor. They were tapped out of resources. Whereas, at the point in which Luke takes off, the Republic is still in a commanding position (I guess- I'm not going to read the new EU canon this time around). It's the difference between choice and no choice. As to the last paragraph- it could be interesting, but not the way they did it. I don't think the B plot decisions were believable, but were contrived poor decisions. I also tend to think, they didn't give a good enough cause for Luke to peace out and want to die- again contrived. And most of the decisions were so poor that I don't even like the Resistance anymore. I want them dead and somebody more competent to take their place. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14151 Posts
Star killer base destroys the current capital of the republic a few planets near the republic capital and the entire new republic fleet. Snoke takes his fleet that has been percolating in the unknown region and conquers the galaxy that has no military to defend it anymore. Asumingly now Kylo has control over a massive navy and the universe which is happy to have a stable government again as well as his old buddies from the academy. Ray has a dozen maybe people in a tramp freighter with no training and a few books. But Ray is going to win beacuse TLJ tells us that star wars is an incredibly limited universe and can only ever be empire vs rebels. | ||
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Falling
Canada11569 Posts
after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?) If that's true, that sounds really dumb. I'd like a proper civil war and a bunch of unaligned factions that broke away from the Empire and the New Republic- you could tell endless stories in a multi-state galaxy. The problem with a resurgent Empire is that you retread the Originals. The problem with a dominant New Republic is you run out of credible threats- as did the old EU until they through the Yuzaan Vong into the mix. The solution is to have the New Republic and the Empire desire total galactic control, but they can never again truly get it. Instead, you have more of a WWI balance of the Great Powers, or whatever. There's just so many more ways you can go- spin out stories forever. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On January 16 2018 08:13 Sermokala wrote: In the new EU cannon post Battle of Javin 4 the empire has a large schism and part of the empires fleet and its people go into the unknown regions to start new. The rebellion gets a flurry of victories and then decisively defeats the rement of the empire in the battle of jakku. after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?) As far as I know that is not quite 100% accurate, but my knowledge comes from second hand information or internet searches. The SW wiki at least says that it's not quite a fraction of the Empire that flew to the unknown regions, but mostly separate individuals, or small groups. The fractions of the Empire stayed, and lost the war agains the New Republic. They Empire that remained then didn't leave after surrendering, they were disarmed but kept ruling their territories, with several restriction, kinda like post WW2 Japan. It's at least heavily implied that the First Order formed by gathering all those separate individuals and rose as a new group, instead of just being a fraction of the Empire with a new name. The main difference is that it makes even less sense that the First Order managed to be so dominant. | ||
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Falling
Canada11569 Posts
It's not even a proper equivalent to nuclear non-proliferation as not making nukes did NOT equal making less conventional weaponry. And then according to the wiki, the Outer Rim jumps on board the First Order bandwagon because they've been hit by pirates... I kinda think those mothballed fleets would have been helpful to fight pirates. So basically the NR was lawful stupid and maybe the galaxy would be better off with the First Order was in charge. The Empire did nothing wrong. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 16 2018 08:36 SKC wrote: As far as I know that is not quite 100% accurate, but my knowledge comes from second hand information or internet searches. The SW wiki at least says that it's not quite a fraction of the Empire that flew to the unknown regions, but mostly separate individuals, or small groups. The fractions of the Empire stayed, and lost the war agains the New Republic. They Empire that remained then didn't leave after surrendering, they were disarmed but kept ruling their territories, with several restriction, kinda like post WW2 Japan. It's at least heavily implied that the First Order formed by gathering all those separate individuals and rose as a new group, instead of just being a fraction of the Empire with a new name. The main difference is that it makes even less sense that the First Order managed to be so dominant. It actually makes perfect sense because we have seen the remnant of the New Republic's leadership. They apparently all live on and keep their entire military on like 5 tightly grouped worlds (all blown up). Then they easily get picked off until they basically have 3 ships worth of people, and send all their bombers on a suicide mission because the pilots follow the orders over a mid-level officer over the Fleet Admirals (likely because the latter are proven incompetents). Then their plan is to slowly drift away from the enemy to a crappy old base because they assume said enemy doesn't have eyes. All this while not using a the super trump card of light speed weapons they have had all along which means that numerical superiority should be useless to their enemies. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 16 2018 08:46 Falling wrote: I don't see why a group that was born out of an asteroid belt that was "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" would suddenly disarm themselves when the Empire decided to sign a peace treaty. You'd think they'd have developed the idea that "those that have no swords, can still die upon them". It's not even a proper equivalent to nuclear non-proliferation as not making nukes did NOT equal making less conventional weaponry. And then according to the wiki, the Outer Rim jumps on board the First Order bandwagon because they've been hit by pirates... I kinda think those mothballed fleets would have been helpful to fight pirates. So basically the NR was lawful stupid and maybe the galaxy would be better off with the First Order was in charge. The Empire did nothing wrong. It is because the Empire's military was the Republic's military. The Republic built the Deathstar. You see this behavior in war weary governments, like a bunch of Europe post WW 1. The second Republic never got its feet off the ground. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
The plot of this movie simply falls apart under closer inspection. I truly don't get why it's so hard for proffessionals to write a story that makes sense... | ||
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