EPTStar Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Page 39
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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 15 2018 02:19 Bigtony wrote: despite being bad it's still better than the prequels by far. Yeah I disagree. I would watch the prequels over this any day. Revenge of the Sith isn't a bad movie either imo and easily superior to TLJ. I dislike The Phantom Menace and I watched it after TLJ and I would still watch it again over TLJ. Never had so much contempt for a star wars movie until this one. Was only a matter of time, but oh well! | ||
Falling
Canada11279 Posts
On January 16 2018 10:25 Plansix wrote: It is because the Empire's military was the Republic's military. The Republic built the Deathstar. You see this behavior in war weary governments, like a bunch of Europe post WW 1. The second Republic never got its feet off the ground. That didn't seem to stop a small off-shoot of the Empire from building yet another Death Star and a giant fleet in the frontier of the galaxy, outside the industrial core, presumably. It's a theoretical worthy explanation if Star Wars suddenly thought about logistics and shipyards (like the Thrawn trilogy)... something I would actually like, if we move away from super weapons and instead to taking strategic planets- that the galaxy itself becomes an interesting feature to fight back and forth. However this new series is allergic to anything remotely close to explanations, never mind a logical explanation. Also, the fact that the Starkiller Base could blow up one system, and that destroyed the entire fleet that was supposed to defend however millions of star systems, tells me they basically fired the entire army and just kept a few tanks, a fighter jet, and a sub to protect New York. That's not war weary disarmament WWI, that Germany forcibly disarmed and resorting to building tanks hidden in barns and labelled 'tractors'. Radical pacifism in the face of an enemy that's very energetic about building its super weapons and really big ships. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On January 16 2018 04:42 Falling wrote: If not for the second ending, I actually was about to call it worse than the prequels... I actually find this really hard to believe, especially since you go on to complain that TLJ fails various basic storytelling benchmarks/rules. The Prequels were down right horrendous movies from any objective benchmark. The camera was horrible (shot, reverse shot. Tracking walking shot. Back to shot reverse shot).. There are actual, racist caricatures in them (Jar Jar, the jewish slave owner of anakin (watto?), the whole trade federation). They turned Darth Vader, one of the scariest villains of all time, into whiny kid, whiny teenager, and then whiny man, to the point where we needed that last scene in Rogue One to finally redeem him. The script was so bad that it made Oscar-level actors (Portman, McGregor) look wooden. Hayden had no chance. And I haven't even talked about the "romance"... | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On January 16 2018 12:27 B.I.G. wrote: I guess that in the end that's my biggest issue with the movie. I just can't stand a plot driven by people making stupid or illogical decisions. When the scene came where they were announcing the new leader because Leia was incapacitated I already got that "oh god no" feeling. I guess internal strife makes sense when leadership is suddenly incapacitated but this kind of drama doesn't really have a place in star wars IMO. To be honest I feel like slightly illogical decisions are a staple of star wars and you have to accept them otherwise there will simply be no drama. Just for example: - When Luke gets captured by the Wampa, and frees himself, why does he walk right out into a blizzard (and Hoth at night) instead of just hiding out in the sheltered cave? - Why exactly does the empire bring AT-ATs to a snow/ice planet when tracked vehicles obviously make more sense since they will exert less primary stress on the snow/ice? - Why can't the pilot who flew the death star trench land an X-wing in cloud cover in Dagoba? - What kind of dumb ass plan did the entire group have when showing up at Jabba's palace, one at a time? So Leia would go in first and try to rescue Han - if she succeeded what was the point of Luke showing up later? Why didn't Luke just go in at the start too? - nearly everything involving the Ewoks killing Stormtroopers | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
-Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same. As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On January 16 2018 14:35 Atreides wrote: Add me to the club of people who'd way rather watch the prequels than ep7&8. And its not even close. Its all personal opinion ofc. Well I personally disagree but if you chalk it up to personal opinion then sure - it's your opinion to hold. I was replying to Falling specifically because he holds TLJ to what look like objective storytelling norms, which should then apply to the prequels too. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same. As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass. I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula. Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha). | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
I'm willing to watch Ep 9 due to the beloved nature of this series that consists of a very large quantity of both very bad and very good products. A good writer can embrace a shitty backstory and make it good going forward (usually not by retcon but merely by just going with it in a way that makes it still good). But this movie really wasn't good for winning over the older more established fanbase. | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
On January 16 2018 14:50 levelping wrote: I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula. Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha). I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being. In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic). So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much. | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On January 16 2018 15:45 B.I.G. wrote: I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being. In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic). So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much. Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO. This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions." | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
I know Star Wars has always played fast and loose with space physics, but the whole "fleet chasing" was just absurd beyond any sense, and not even a silly fun absurd like Speed. Like, the equivalent would be a 2 hour car chase where one car is just honking the entire time, except its in fucking space. There was enough surrounding it that it was a salvageable movie, and if they'd gone and cut the entire Vegas planet and cut the chase to like an hour in universe time instead of a full fucking day then basically everything relevant in the movie would still be there. Kylo Ren still remains the best character to come out of this trilogy, and I at least enjoyed the build up with Rey where either's possible turns were well within possibility. Don't even mind that both ended up going the predictable route, because at least enough was done with both where it was actually meaningful. I understand why people might hate Luke's part in the story, but I fully expected him to be the Yoda/Obi-wan of this series, so it was well within the boundaries of what I'd gone in with. Snoke is still a completely pointless character. Just call him replacement-Palpatine and stop pretending he exists as anything else. | ||
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Korakys
New Zealand272 Posts
This Reboot Trilogy looks like Star Wars and sounds like Star Wars, but when you see it in motion it really doesn't feel like Star Wars. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On January 16 2018 16:27 cLutZ wrote: Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO. This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions." I think the TLJ throne room battle is a good balance between realistic fighting and stylistics. I actually think it's pretty high up on the best LS fight list. The red backdrop is gorgeous | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17855 Posts
On January 16 2018 16:27 cLutZ wrote: Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO. This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions." If you have a problem with realistic fight choreography then I suggest you start at from anything with swords. Especially laser swords. The first thing they teach you when fencing is that what you see in TV is ridiculous and nobody ever fought like that, because if they did they'd be stabbed, sliced or bludgeoned to death in the first half a second of the battle. But big sweeping movements clanging into one another look far better on film than small shifts of balance followed by a quick thrust, parry and retreat back to warily circling one another. This is doubly so for laser swords. I agree with you that the prequels went completely overboard, with Yoda vs Dooku and high ground being the most egregious, but not a single lightsaber fight is in any way a realistic depiction of how anyone would (have to) fight against them. Despite that, the fights in the new movies have been very enjoyable. Both Finn+Rey vs Kylo and the throne room fight were excellently executed. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On January 16 2018 19:00 Acrofales wrote: If you have a problem with realistic fight choreography then I suggest you start at from anything with swords. Especially laser swords. The first thing they teach you when fencing is that what you see in TV is ridiculous and nobody ever fought like that, because if they did they'd be stabbed, sliced or bludgeoned to death in the first half a second of the battle. But big sweeping movements clanging into one another look far better on film than small shifts of balance followed by a quick thrust, parry and retreat back to warily circling one another. This is doubly so for laser swords. I agree with you that the prequels went completely overboard, with Yoda vs Dooku and high ground being the most egregious, but not a single lightsaber fight is in any way a realistic depiction of how anyone would (have to) fight against them. Despite that, the fights in the new movies have been very enjoyable. Both Finn+Rey vs Kylo and the throne room fight were excellently executed. Most people I think are not looking for realistic fights, particularly in sci-fi or fantasy, rather they are looking for realism within an established universe. Ironically, the beginning of the Dooku fight in Clone Wars is kinda pure in this sense. Dooku dispatches Anakin easily with his lightning and then Obiwan is just fighting super defensively until he gets stabbed, once he gets saved from his simple execution the whole scene goes downhill, but that initial crushing is in some ways perfect. Oddly, despite your praise, I don't really remember much about the new lightsaber battles. Probably because I only have seen them much fewer times, and also my main issues with them were thematic rather than cinematic. So I think I'd agree they didn't break the sort of audience trust that IMO the Yoda-Dooko, Anakin-Obiwan, or Darth Maul fights did. I think its about preserving the sense of suspense. Another example I can think of of action scenes not making sense would be the later Terminator movies (one with a fairly fat Arnold and another with Bale come to mind) where a sexy death robot with rocket arms comes and kills like everything, but then she judo chops our main guys through concrete and they are only temporarily dazed. Or like the robots grab your leg while you run away and dont just freaking fracture the ankle via crushing even though they rip door handles off right before that? | ||
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sharkeyanti
United States1273 Posts
I've found it helpful to just not care about the movies during their production and just go watch it in the theater on release. If you spend all this time speculating you probably will be disappointed in some way. | ||
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