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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On January 17 2018 07:24 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:52 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3. I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie. It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.). On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker. I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot. This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural. How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out. Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe. The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else. I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side.
Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry.
People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
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Kylo has yet to defeat Rey even once despite his training and her lack of. Apparently the more he trains the stronger she gets as well (yay balance) so it kind of defeats the purpose of training all together.
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Except that Kylo defeated Rey the first time they met in like 10 seconds.
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And was kicking her ass for the entire fight in the first movie right up until he let her tap into the Force and dumpster him. The thing he specifically told Storm Troopers would happen if she was left to explore her powers.
He also got shot by a gun they ran a freaking infomercial on how bad ass it was. And had just fought Finn, who gave Kylo a run for his money.
And he just murdered his father.
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I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
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People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
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On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
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On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote:
People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians.
And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too.
Also order 66 
I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around.
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On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote:
People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Yeah... this is not really true. The Jedi were wiped out by clone troopers who were all non-force users. Plus Rey is a force user, so i am not sure why you are raising this point. Fynn who is not a force user tried to fight Kylo and got beaten in a couple of seconds.
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On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
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On January 17 2018 16:36 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote:
People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"? Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians. And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too. Also order 66 I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around.
I don't really agree with you on the Fett stuff, and the Cartoons are...IDK. Its possible that the guards aren't force-y (it would seem there is probably a continuum from The Emperor to Original Trilogy Leia to Force Rube), but they ARE elite trainees and still get beaten 2 v 8 and Rey still has like 3 days of training. That said, I think your point is taken. The Force is only SLIGHTLY stronger than long periods of elite level training.
My main reason for this post is to respond to the "emphasis" point you made. No its not. Its invisible. The first time I watched I totally forgot he was wounded and said, "wow its really weird they made that choice, no one will ever believe Kylo is even a challenge to Rey in the future." Its something you have to have pointed out to you and be looking for on a rewatch. And in the end, why is it a good editorial choice worth defended? Sure, if he looked on the verge of death the entire time, then absolutely crushed Finn anyways, then was beating Rey despite constant visual pain, limping, and basically 100% relying on the force then you have her embrace the force and blow him out of range right before the Falcon comes, then that gives you the same "Rey wins" ending, but actually makes sense. Or you can just have Rey barely be able to escape. Either works 10x better and conveying the point that defenders of the scene allege it was trying to make.
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On January 17 2018 17:15 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 16:36 Acrofales wrote:On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote:
People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"? Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians. And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too. Also order 66 I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around. I don't really agree with you on the Fett stuff, and the Cartoons are...IDK. Its possible that the guards aren't force-y (it would seem there is probably a continuum from The Emperor to Original Trilogy Leia to Force Rube), but they ARE elite trainees and still get beaten 2 v 8 and Rey still has like 3 days of training. That said, I think your point is taken. The Force is only SLIGHTLY stronger than long periods of elite level training. My main reason for this post is to respond to the "emphasis" point you made. No its not. Its invisible. The first time I watched I totally forgot he was wounded and said, "wow its really weird they made that choice, no one will ever believe Kylo is even a challenge to Rey in the future." Its something you have to have pointed out to you and be looking for on a rewatch.
I guessed we both took the movie differently. I felt that the Kylo injury was foreshadowed constantly in the way they show that the wookie bowcaster is super powerful, and so on. Plus during the fight he was bleeding into the snow too.
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It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
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On January 17 2018 17:41 Velr wrote:
It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
Yeah... Fynn seems to get a pass for a whole bunch of inexplicable powers of his own too. Flying stuff, and not to mention having the most convenient knowledge of just about every technical detail of the First Order's systems, despite being a self-proclaimed lowly trooper.
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On January 17 2018 17:41 Velr wrote:
It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Kylo Ren exists to be an ineffective villain, which is why he's constantly losing. Which is great, I love his character direction all around.
But he just can't carry the conflict against a protagonist like Rey.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
Did he actually fly anything? I thought Rose flew all the ships. He got one of those land speeder things, but that's comparing a car and an airplane.
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Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D.
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On January 17 2018 09:00 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:24 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:52 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3. I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie. It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.). On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker. I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot. This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural. How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out. Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe. The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else. I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person. I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side. Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry. People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something.
Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement.
It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them.
It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way.
On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D.
He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot.
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On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
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On January 18 2018 01:44 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 09:00 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:24 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:52 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3. I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie. It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.). On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker. I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot. This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural. How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out. Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe. The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else. I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person. I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side. Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry. People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader. But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something. Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement. It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them. It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way. Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D. He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot.
He deserves all those things because hes a skywalker. Hes placed as a hero from birth and has a clear example that he needs to meet to not be a failure. Hes pressured from birth to be a galaxy level hero. Luke presumably looks for those other force sensitive people as well. Hes pushed down the path he goes on by the people around him failing him and abandoning him to his fate. After Luke tries to kill him he legitimately has to fear for his life and the only thing that can save him is the dark side. He was placed in that academy by his parents and was turned to the darkside by luke.
Ray has nothing so she works for basic survival. Her only notable act to start her on her path is not selling off the only friend she makes on a planet and from then shes running for her life from the empire. Kylo throws a tantrum because snoke tells him rightfully that hes a failure and that he doesn't make a good sith. He never wanted to be a sith and has always had to project his self worth on the pressures that others have always put onto him. Rey is shocked from meeting her hero and finding out that hes a coward that caused all the problems she faced in the last few days. She is denied and decides the only thing left to do is a hail mary "lets deliver myself to kylo and snoke in some episode 6 play to do something". Shes resourceful as she steals the books, she shows perseverance by not being a coward that refuses to ignore the galaxies issues like a regular person and continues her power spike by not getting any real training or doing anything that would help her on the island to justify her abilities in the movie.
When you are burdened with expectations and pressures you're not entitled when everyone fails you and you want the things people said you had to be.
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On January 18 2018 02:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 01:44 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 09:00 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 07:24 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:52 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 05:20 Logo wrote:On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3. I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie. It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.). On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker. I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot. This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural. How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out. Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe. The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else. I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person. I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side. Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry. People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader. But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something. Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement. It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them. It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way. On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D. He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot. He deserves all those things because hes a skywalker. Hes placed as a hero from birth and has a clear example that he needs to meet to not be a failure. Hes pressured from birth to be a galaxy level hero. Luke presumably looks for those other force sensitive people as well. Hes pushed down the path he goes on by the people around him failing him and abandoning him to his fate. After Luke tries to kill him he legitimately has to fear for his life and the only thing that can save him is the dark side. He was placed in that academy by his parents and was turned to the darkside by luke. Ray has nothing so she works for basic survival. Her only notable act to start her on her path is not selling off the only friend she makes on a planet and from then shes running for her life from the empire. Kylo throws a tantrum because snoke tells him rightfully that hes a failure and that he doesn't make a good sith. He never wanted to be a sith and has always had to project his self worth on the pressures that others have always put onto him. Rey is shocked from meeting her hero and finding out that hes a coward that caused all the problems she faced in the last few days. She is denied and decides the only thing left to do is a hail mary "lets deliver myself to kylo and snoke in some episode 6 play to do something". Shes resourceful as she steals the books, she shows perseverance by not being a coward that refuses to ignore the galaxies issues like a regular person and continues her power spike by not getting any real training or doing anything that would help her on the island to justify her abilities in the movie. When you are burdened with expectations and pressures you're not entitled when everyone fails you and you want the things people said you had to be.
Like idk, I feel like you're seeing the movie the same way; all the points you bring up are exactly what I see as the point except you are drawing the conclusion in an opposite direction. Rather than seeing that the movie is calling bull on these entitlements (and yes the generational hand-off and systems that creates them) you see the same thing and are coming to a different conclusion that yes Kylo does deserve all these things and he's justified in his behavior.
Which is interesting and reasonable; I mean it's clearly part of art/media to draw your own conclusions.
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