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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
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On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
I don't get the Praetorian guard thing really. It didn't seem like she had a totally easy time of it and even if she's inexperienced it seems clear the lightsaber is a superior weapon and the guard's armor is more a hinderance than helpful vs them. So is it really that surprising someone with a superior weapon for the situation had an advantage they wouldn't have otherwise gotten
Like yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it seems well within the standard movie norms. Her staff training helping her quickly learn to wield a lightsaber is reasonable enough. It's not like she's blocking multiple blaster shots with it or anything.
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On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
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Finally got around to watching this. Loved it, with the exception of the very dumb twist with that Vice-Admiral's secret plan. Also, kinda disappointed there was no standard light saber fight.
I'll agree with other people's assessments that Rey is OP. But like, I'm just over that since we already criticized that to death 2 years ago.
Strangely enough, that wasn't what bothered me the most in the sequels. To me, what bothered me was the premise of the New Order entirely. The way that went down and they were able to form a super technologically advanced navy and army in just 2 decades even though they were kicked out of the established galaxy.
That, and like, it feels they had this established universe, and they had to immediately set up how the Good Guys are underdogs somehow.
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On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible.
And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
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On January 18 2018 06:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets. Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible. And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
For what it's worth there's also just a plausible lack of tutors for this sort of thing at this point in the movies. Snoke doesn't appear to be a traditional Jedi/Sith (he didn't even have a lightsaber) and Luke was self taught with only minimal instruction.
Even Snoke's guards are plausibly learning melee combat (and old and relatively useless combat style if you can't block blaster bolts) in ad hoc-ish way as any true master in melee combat previously would probably have been a Jedi or Sith. The general First Order riff-raff seem to use melee weapons as riot control for non-lethal enforcement. The only lightsaber training they would have would be if they practiced with Kylo Ren, but we have no indication that has happened.
For as strong as we say Kylo Ren all his training in dueling with a lightsaber would be at Luke's academy and we don't know how long that lasted or how militaristic the training was. Once he left there he presumably hasn't encountered anyone with a lightsaber until Rey.
You are starting off in a world where there seems to be a general vacuum of knowledge on certain military topics because everything was built around the Jedi/Sith relationship, and then the Sith destroyed the Jedi and kept the knowledge for themselves for power.
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I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
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On January 18 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote:
I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
Although strangely enough, it seems most lasers are super effective vs most armor in Star Wars.
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On January 18 2018 08:05 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote:
I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars. Although strangely enough, it seems most lasers are super effective vs most armor in Star Wars.
The German army are all really bad shots in Indian Jones too. He is also a college professor who can fly a plane, ride horses and sword fight. Pulp is like that. Armor is super awesome if worn by a lead character in pulp.
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On January 18 2018 06:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets. Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible. And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
Don't you remember the scenes with obi wan in the first movie when luke has the helmit on and hes doubting the force in how to see the droid firing lazers at him? I get pulp on everyone can hold their own but ray never gets a single scene of nor time to train anything yet she fights better then anyone else in the galaxy. Theres suspending disbelief and then there's just mary sueing beacuse you value making luke a coward over giving ray any training or mentoring at all.
Theres a significant time skip where luke is training under yoda and can reasonably surmise "training happened" ray leans expert sword fighting in a week. thats unbelievable.
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She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
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On January 18 2018 12:24 Plansix wrote:
She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
I mean it was a cool scene and all but I just feel Ray goes so much further into the pulp territory than anyone else i the universe that it ruins most of the character.
Theres no real tension anymore for the final movie on whos going to win lightsaber fight between them. Ray hasn't earned anything so everything she gets is meaningless in comparison to the changes that kylo has had in the series.
I'm still salty that we don't get anymore Kylo vocoder voice.
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On January 18 2018 12:24 Plansix wrote:
She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
But if not anyone of the people you listed, then who?
That's basically the problem right now. The mooks are expected to be dumpstered, but so are all of the remaining villain characters.
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Canada11378 Posts
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
He also got hit by that droid laser thing, forced to run away from Darth Vader the first time, struggled to retrieve his lightsaber, failed to lift the stones, completely lost concentration and dropped Yoda when receiving a vision, is tricked by Darth Vader, beaten and had his hand cut off by Darth Vader. His strength is piloting- mentioned quite a few times in the film- and not just him tooting his own horn- Biggs Darklighter gives him the A-Ok just prior to the battle- it's also clear that he's been target shooting at very small objects while flying, plus it turns out he was an alright shot, when gunning down TIE's in the Falcon, much to Solo's chagrin who thought Luke was all hot air.
Don't confuse one area of competency (plus the one time he finally lets go and succeeds with the Force, aka the climax of his character arc for that film) for Luke breezing through everything else. Similarly, Neo had certain areas of competency at the beginning, but panics at the heights, gets caught by the Agents, failed the first jump, did alright against Morpheus, but clearly out of his element compared to Morpheus, wasn't particularly special escaping from the Agents the first time back in the Matrix... etc, etc. I've been soft on Rey in the past, but a tough hill to climb is a more interesting story than an easy plain to walk, and I'd say the film makers have been too easy on her- they've haven't really made her struggle, not really and truly struggle. But the main point isn't necessarily that Rey is too much so much as they really haven't set up anyone to really give her a good run for her money in the final film, except to face Kylo for round two where she can beat him again.
Anakin... I won't defend kid Anakin. They should've started the story when he was a hot shot pilot in his late teens and not before.
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On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
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On January 18 2018 17:44 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets. Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts? I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke. The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
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On January 19 2018 03:28 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 17:44 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets. Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts? I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke. The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point? Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
It's up to you if you want to go to all those lengths to come up with crappy excuses for why Luke was an expert at everything despite poor on-screen justification, and why Rey cannot possibly be an expert because of similarly poor on-screen justification, that's fine. But there really isn't any point in arguing that your mind universe is the true SW universe and anybody who thinks Rey training with a staff is enough of a justification for her to be able to fight with a one-sided staff as long as she remembers to not shift her grip too much.
My problem isn't really with your criticism of the new trilogy. I agree with you that it was one of the main weaknesses of TFA that Rey could do absolutely everything instantly. For each individual skill there's a reasonable in-universe explanation, but it's the sheer quantity of elite skills she suddenly turns out to have. She can pilot, fight with a lightsaber, and resist mind probes, all essentially on her first attempt. Yes, she had plenty of time to learn how to fly. Yes, they establish that she could fight against a wounded Kylo, and that she got her ass kicked until she "found balance", and yes, resisting the mind probe isn't all that farfetched. It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
TLJ actually did a lot to rectify that. Rey got her ass kicked. Maybe not by Kylo, but he played a key part in it. Kylo also went through a lot of growth, while Rey essentially lost time. Kylo ended with a crushing defeat, but so did the entire resistance. I find people are too hooked up on the "well, FO controls the galaxy, resistance is doomed, but has Rey, and there's no big bad guy. movie 9 needs another death star to be interesting". I don't know what JJ is going to do, but if it's a return to all the boring tropes with resistance good, FO evil. Build super weapon, destroy super weapon, Rey saves the day and decapitates FO by killing Kylo (and Hux blows up on Death Star Mk 4), party with *newoks* on *newndor*... THEN the new trilogy is a failure. So far I have seen two rather entertaining movies that add some interesting stuff to the SW universe and do some other stuff badly. They were visually stunning, and had some stupid plotholes. But what TLJ did very well was establish a bad guy who isn't the bad guy "because he's evil", but rather it gave the bad guy actual motives and a backstory. Even with 3 entire movies to give depth to Palpatine we *still* don't know why he was the bad guy and what motivates him (other than a hatred for Jedi, which doesn't really explain his rampage and domination of the galaxy). JJ could broaden that backstory and build a different conclusion to the trilogy that doesn't require a deathstar. And I really hope he does.
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It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
I think there's some real intentional subversion of the heroes journey going on that is (or trying to) feed into the plots and themes of the movies. It'll be interesting to see what 9 does with it and if it successfully pulls it off as a trilogy or not.
Like even for all of Rey's natural advantages compared to Luke, is she doing any better than Luke did in the bigger picture? Luke delivered R2D2, blew up the Death Star, and helped immensely in the battle of Hoth (both as a scout and a pilot) by this point in the movies.
In terms of direct actions that's helped the cause she's delivered BB-8 to the resistance, opened a door for Han Solo & Chewie so they could blow up the Starkiller base, sort of helped convince Ren to kill Snoke, and helped get the Falcon to the right part on Crait to save the fleeing resistance members? Like almost everything she's had to do has been to help herself out of situations for her own benefit (and characters who happen to be with her). She's really contributed almost nothing to the resistance cause until the final 5 minutes of TLJ.
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On January 19 2018 04:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 03:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 17:44 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 04:28 Sermokala wrote:On January 18 2018 03:58 levelping wrote:On January 18 2018 01:49 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 17:14 levelping wrote:On January 17 2018 16:30 Sermokala wrote:On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote:
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc. You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident. With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week. And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week? Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit? The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on. I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities? Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did. Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker. Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character. Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey? If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time? There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here. The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets. Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts? I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke. The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point? Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star. It's up to you if you want to go to all those lengths to come up with crappy excuses for why Luke was an expert at everything despite poor on-screen justification, and why Rey cannot possibly be an expert because of similarly poor on-screen justification, that's fine. But there really isn't any point in arguing that your mind universe is the true SW universe and anybody who thinks Rey training with a staff is enough of a justification for her to be able to fight with a one-sided staff as long as she remembers to not shift her grip too much. My problem isn't really with your criticism of the new trilogy. I agree with you that it was one of the main weaknesses of TFA that Rey could do absolutely everything instantly. For each individual skill there's a reasonable in-universe explanation, but it's the sheer quantity of elite skills she suddenly turns out to have. She can pilot, fight with a lightsaber, and resist mind probes, all essentially on her first attempt. Yes, she had plenty of time to learn how to fly. Yes, they establish that she could fight against a wounded Kylo, and that she got her ass kicked until she "found balance", and yes, resisting the mind probe isn't all that farfetched. It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp. TLJ actually did a lot to rectify that. Rey got her ass kicked. Maybe not by Kylo, but he played a key part in it. Kylo also went through a lot of growth, while Rey essentially lost time. Kylo ended with a crushing defeat, but so did the entire resistance. I find people are too hooked up on the "well, FO controls the galaxy, resistance is doomed, but has Rey, and there's no big bad guy. movie 9 needs another death star to be interesting". I don't know what JJ is going to do, but if it's a return to all the boring tropes with resistance good, FO evil. Build super weapon, destroy super weapon, Rey saves the day and decapitates FO by killing Kylo (and Hux blows up on Death Star Mk 4), party with *newoks* on *newndor*... THEN the new trilogy is a failure. So far I have seen two rather entertaining movies that add some interesting stuff to the SW universe and do some other stuff badly. They were visually stunning, and had some stupid plotholes. But what TLJ did very well was establish a bad guy who isn't the bad guy "because he's evil", but rather it gave the bad guy actual motives and a backstory. Even with 3 entire movies to give depth to Palpatine we *still* don't know why he was the bad guy and what motivates him (other than a hatred for Jedi, which doesn't really explain his rampage and domination of the galaxy). JJ could broaden that backstory and build a different conclusion to the trilogy that doesn't require a deathstar. And I really hope he does.
There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
TLJ makes everything worse by removing even the slightest shade of mary sueness ray could be. Shes a jedi master that can lift far more weight then ever just by having the rocks in front of her without any instruction or anyone telling her how. She fights the best fighters the first order can muster better then the kylo with a weapon she didn't even knew existed a week ago. she doesn't pilot things anymore but simply aims an escape pod to somehow land inside snokes super ship at a docking bay on a ship she had no way of knowing existed. Kylo didn't lose anything in TLJ. he gained the universe and control over the entire first order.
They made kylo a good character but they've pinned the trilogy to end just as you said it would to be a failure. Palpatine never needed justification or motivation because the story was never about him. Other characters we knew built him up and his image so when he appeared what we saw was exactly what he needed to be.
What does JJ have even to work with? He has no big bad enemy. the evil side has all the material power but lacks any threat to ray and the entire side looks incompetent. The good guys are incredibly weak but lacks any doubt to weather they'll win or not 4 characters in ray poe rose and finn with chewbacka as background support maybe?
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There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
She grew up in a refurbished AT&AT which included a lot of information on starships (and a flight simulator) and she's worked in and scrapped ships her entire life. Her most formative thing in her life is a memory of a pilot flying away and later getting a pilot helmet so you know she's motivated in the endeavor.
And like I'm not even making that up completely, it's canon from one of the novels they made for the first movie (as much as that counts for the film which isn't too much).
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EPT
