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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
Canada11378 Posts
On January 19 2018 07:18 LegalLord wrote:
Rey being a decent pilot is ok. Rey mastering everything ever in record time is problematic. Luke wasn't a master at everything he ever did, so why is she?
Luke definitely had quite a few factors supporting that he was a good pilot. But he was never so good as to be a Mary Sue. So actual character development.
This is the key- it's not any one thing of Rey. Characters should have areas of competency. Defenders keep harping on Luke's skill... but that's his main skill. Everything else, he has to struggle through. Give the guy a break. Whereas Rey has a plethora of skills. Having lots of skills isn't a bad thing. The problem is that she has so many, she rarely has to really has to struggle, and rarely are her defeats as pronounced as Luke's or let's say Neo in the first Matrix. There is some defeat in the Force Awakens and for that I gave the first film a pass. This film didn't really increase my confidence on the matter- she's flung around by the one guy who is dead for the next film and seemingly needed no training from Luke to become more powerful.
The problem is in aggregate, not any one thing in particular.
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Neo at least had a semi-plausible explanation of having skills downloaded into his brain.
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On January 19 2018 08:20 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 07:26 Plansix wrote:
She nearly crashed the Falcon, gets wrecked by Kylo up until the point where the Force decides it is balance time, forgets to take the safety off the gun, pulls the wrong fuses and gets caught by Kylo.
But yeah, other than those things she is great at everything. But they should have had some lines about how good she was at things before she did them so people could be mad at those lines. And in TFA that stuff happens and its okay. what we're discussing is what happens in TLJ and how TLJ doesn't include any of the mistakes or explanations for the spike between 7 and 8 in her abilities. in TWA we can excuse a lot of what she does to kylo being injured or the force being with her to make her lucky. In TLJ shes better then anyone else in the galaxy at everything she does.
She gets in one real conflict am due fights a dude. Maybe two. Kylo gets the rest. The fight with Luke is one where he is not invested in winning. Like at all.
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To focus on the force-sensitive heroes' previous flight training is to miss what the narrative is telling you.
In ep IV, Luke's talent as a pilot is tied to his talent with the force ("The Force is strong with this one", "Use the Force, Luke."). Yes, the movie tells you a bit about his previous experience... he was talented even as a kid, but all he ever had access to was an old T16 for shooting womprats. The narrative is clear: Luke's piloting experience is limited, but his connection to the Force makes him one of the best pilots in the galaxy and when he leans on it completely he makes the shot and wins the battle of Yavin.
In ep I, the narrative doubles down. Referring to Anakin's experience in podracing to explain his piloting skills is missing the point entirely. The only reason Anakin is capable of podracing is because of his prodigious Force abilities making up for slow human reaction times. The prequels take the OT narrative of "Luke's force-sensitivity manifests in excellent flying skills" and makes it explicit with Anakin.
The sequels have the established lore of the previous two series to build off of. Like it or not, part of the lore is that the Force makes you a natural pilot. A character who turns out to be both Force-sensitive and a natural pilot is exactly aligned with the narrative established by Luke and Anakin. The fact that the sequels spend less time showing us this new character's limited previous piloting experience is because the Force-pilot dynamic has already been established and is here only being referred to and continued.
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Canada11378 Posts
And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything.
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On January 19 2018 15:49 Falling wrote:
And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything.
I think that's taking a very narrow view of being challenged. Basically making it only about the physical and combative aspects of the character and disregarding everything else. It always seemed to me that part of the point is that Rey confronts Snoke/Kylo and meets very little physical challenge (well a fair bit with the guards, but she deals), but it still results in almost no betterment of her situation.
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She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
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On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
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On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
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On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
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Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he would still be alive and be a theoretical treat to the first order instead of doing suicide by "gotcha".
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On January 20 2018 03:04 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
On January 20 2018 03:04 Velr wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he would still be alive and be a theoretical treat to the first order instead of doing suicide by "gotcha".
He would have wasted away into nothing. He didn't even know Han died. He got a bunch of students killed and ran away from his nephew and shame. When Rey fights him, he catches himself at the end with the Force, which he had stated he cut himself off from. That scene is about someone who is like Luke used to be rejecting who Luke became, IMO. And he is so blinded by shame he can't even see it. He is fearful of Rey's desire to go into "the dark place" on the island, even though he did the exact same thing with Yoda. He fears the part of Rey that is like him, the part that caused him to give himself up to Vader. We could argue that he saw the same thing in Ben too.
Personally, I love this take on Luke along side my own cannon that he used the dark side to beat Vader. That the experience of beating Vader with that power made him understand how tempting it could be and he could never let his students go through the process he did. That saving his father made him afraid of losing anyone else to the dark side, which pretty much assured that he would lose someone to the dark side.
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On January 20 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:04 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment. Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends. Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated.
My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
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On January 20 2018 03:27 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 03:04 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment. Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends. Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character. Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated. My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways).
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In the big picture, who cares about who wins? Ray is a Mary Sue and there is not doubt about it, but in 30 years the Second order will control again the galaxy, without any reason, with a Death Sun or something worst and the antagonist is going to be like Milhouse but older.
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On January 19 2018 16:22 B.I.G. wrote:In case of repost, I apologize. www.empireonline.com10 reveals from Rian Johnson about TLJ.
This made me hate Rian johsnon so much more and lose all desire to ever see the trilogy after this.
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On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
You have inspired me to contemplate a question: Why should we want the non-Rey resistance to survive? My conclusion is we should not, and indeed, people who yearn to be free from the First Order also should not. Leia, frankly, was the least interesting of the 3 characters they brought back from 4-6, and her character's life work in the New Republic is already a failure. Finn & Rose are chronically dumb, but are elevated by the Resistance because reasons, & Poe is a good pilot but a worthwhile sacrifice for a new beginning. Thus, there is no cinematic payoff for saving the resistance, and going forward the payoff for the galaxy is a big "meh". These guys are proven losers, and not just because they are outnumbered, they weren't always outnumbered, they lost from even footing to become outnumbered. Random Freedom Fighter #7 will lead a more effective resistance.
On January 20 2018 03:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:27 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 03:04 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment. Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends. Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character. Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated. My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges? As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways).
The Yoda scene is great. Its about showing control/discipline not about raw power.
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On January 20 2018 07:29 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. You have inspired me to contemplate a question: Why should we want the non-Rey resistance to survive? My conclusion is we should not, and indeed, people who yearn to be free from the First Order also should not. Leia, frankly, was the least interesting of the 3 characters they brought back from 4-6, and her character's life work in the New Republic is already a failure. Finn & Rose are chronically dumb, but are elevated by the Resistance because reasons, & Poe is a good pilot but a worthwhile sacrifice for a new beginning. Thus, there is no cinematic payoff for saving the resistance, and going forward the payoff for the galaxy is a big "meh". These guys are proven losers, and not just because they are outnumbered, they weren't always outnumbered, they lost from even footing to become outnumbered. Random Freedom Fighter #7 will lead a more effective resistance. Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:39 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 03:27 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 03:04 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 20 2018 02:46 Logo wrote:On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote:
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it.
Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!". And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie. Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her. Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment. Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends. Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character. Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated. My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges? As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways). The Yoda scene is great. Its about showing control/discipline not about raw power.
Isn’t that the point of the film though? That failure is the path to victory. And running from failure just assure defeat. You are right that the resistance failed at its goal of saving the Republic and even itself, but it did set the New Order back. I think the thrust of the new series will be that victory isn’t forever.
Edit: I also like that Yoda scene. It serves its purpose and has some good Muppet comedy. I just think it is funny because we never ask ourselves:
“What the fuck did Yoda say to get Luke to balance Yoda on his foot? Did he start on the foot or jump up there? Is this normal Jedi training or is Yoda just an old man space troll? Why is he holding the cane while up there?”
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I mean, that is kind of what some of the characters say, but its not really what they do. Kylo doesn't fail his way to victory, he kills. Rey's running is successful. The failures of Finn & friends result in extremely bad outcomes. It is Luke finally taking a stand that salvages some modicum of life for those that he supports, so running and taking a stand are both themes.
Also, they blew up 2 ships. Kinda big ships I suppose, but not really that important long term. We all expect TFA to lose in the next movie, thus showing that "victory isn't forever", but that hasn't been earned. The real major thrust of the new Trilogy is that everyone who isn't evil that isn't a man from 4-6 is totally incompetent.
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EPT
