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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
Canada11378 Posts
On January 20 2018 01:40 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 15:49 Falling wrote:
And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything. I think that's taking a very narrow view of being challenged. Basically making it only about the physical and combative aspects of the character and disregarding everything else. It always seemed to me that part of the point is that Rey confronts Snoke/Kylo and meets very little physical challenge (well a fair bit with the guards, but she deals), but it still results in almost no betterment of her situation.
Not really. It's not just physical challenges- but physical challenges very often are the outward manifestation of inward challenges, particularly in action films. But I meant to struggle and suffer in the largest sense of the word, physical, yes, but much more. It's a journey and a good journey has worthy opposition.
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Finland953 Posts
On January 20 2018 06:51 Sermokala wrote:This made me hate Rian johsnon so much more and lose all desire to ever see the trilogy after this.
These are pretty typical thought processes from almost any director vOv
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But in a lot of those answers it does sound like he just decided to discard most of the plot lines set up by the first movie. I understand going away from the first trilogy's tropes, but he didn't have to completely ignore SW7 either.
"Nobody cares about Snoke, not his story" isn't really the kind of answer people were expecting.
I did like the "decision" of making Rey a nobody, that reveal was indeed dramatic. I say "decision" because it just might be the director straight up ignoring the mysterious scenes about Rey's origins in SW7.
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On January 24 2018 20:00 ZenithM wrote:
But in a lot of those answers it does sound like he just decided to discard most of the plot lines set up by the first movie. I understand going away from the first trilogy's tropes, but he didn't have to completely ignore SW7 either.
"Nobody cares about Snoke, not his story" isn't really the kind of answer people were expecting.
I did like the "decision" of making Rey a nobody, that reveal was indeed dramatic. I say "decision" because it just might be the director straight up ignoring the mysterious scenes about Rey's origins in SW7.
There was no satisfactory answer to Snoke.
Mace Snoke? Fuck no.
Snoke Plagueis? Why did he change his name?
Any other origin for Snoke is essentially exactly what he gave us: essentially self-trained DS user (and there are plenty in the EU, and even in the Canon it's got the fucking nightsister bullshit) who grabbed his chance to take control over a large chunk of the ex-Empire forces. Powerful, but ultimately unimportant, because the story is about Kylo, not Snoke.
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Everyone seems to be aware of the Force in the universe, so there must be an equal number of people aware that the dark side is a thing. I can totally accept that Snoke as just the guy who grabbed power by having the remaining empire loyalist rally around him.
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Even so, he didn't have to get killed off in 2 minutes without a second thought. I get that it's Kylo and Rey's story, but the way that movie had to deal with some of the plot threads started in SW7 felt really dismissive. We could have gotten less casino, more Snoke (and have him ultimately die in the same scene).
I guess it was intentional to discard him that quickly, and it had the welcome effect of really putting Kylo in the center of things to come, but it just feels like a breach of continuity or something. Felt like killing the Emperor trope for the sake of it.
"See, Rey could have been somebody's daughter, like that dude Luke with Vador? But no, she's nobody."
"See, Snoke could have been the Big Bad, master of the Force with unfathomable powers. Nah he's not that big of a deal."
It's a good trilogy so far but it's very self-conscious.
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If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
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We could have gotten less casino, more Snoke
I don't think that's a bad complaint, but also one I consider minor.
Basically the problem is the thematic impact of killing Snoke (Kylo killing his true enemy and what that says about the past & the inter generational themes of the movie) gets kind of condensed with the reveal of Rey's lineage and I feel like the former kind of muddled the latter. Like with the 2nd reveal so quickly happening (among Poe's story line coming to a head) it feels a bit like a tumble of reveals instead of having time to think about and savor the implications.
But in hindsight I don't think it really diminishes the impact or how neat the reveals were once you have time to kind of digest it all.
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On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote:
If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
I can agree with that. Its probably why its so divisive of a movie. It attacks the things that people love about star wars in an attempt to make something that isn't star wars because the director is ashamed of the source material. Its how we get hot garbage like the fan4stick spandex fire.
Or at least it feels like that. TFA was divisive for much different reasons but at the end of the day fan service services the fans.
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On January 25 2018 04:42 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote:
If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes. I can agree with that. Its probably why its so divisive of a movie. It attacks the things that people love about star wars in an attempt to make something that isn't star wars because the director is ashamed of the source material. Its how we get hot garbage like the fan4stick spandex fire. Or at least it feels like that. TFA was divisive for much different reasons but at the end of the day fan service services the fans.
Or that Star Wars was known for breaking conventions and had become mired in its own tropes. That it deserves more than just a rehash of the dynamics that existed before. The director isn’t ashamed of anything. He just wants star wars to be more that family drama with space wizards.
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The problem is it never was a family drama (the good movies) and thinking it was is a fundamental mistake. It is about a heroes tale. In the end it was a simple story.
The mistake with discarding things from the universe is that Johnson fails to understand that if his movie was called Star Attack: The last warrior it wouldn't have broken $100 million
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On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote:
If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
That's super meta.
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I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest.
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On January 25 2018 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest.
I completely disagree. Rey and Kylo are not related. Finn isn’t a space wizard(maybe). The narrative of the story is that they need to look for something beyond the endless empire vs rebel conflict that they admit will never end in the first movie. They can’t beat the darkside. It is impossible. Just like Kylo can’t really kill or defeat Luke. How do you resist a war that will never end? And enemy you will never destroy? Why would you just stay out of the way if the conflict is eternal?
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On January 25 2018 07:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest. I completely disagree. Rey and Kylo are not related. Finn isn’t a space wizard(maybe). The narrative of the story is that they need to look for something beyond the endless empire vs rebel conflict that they admit will never end in the first movie. They can’t beat the darkside. It is impossible. Just like Kylo can’t really kill or defeat Luke. How do you resist a war that will never end? And enemy you will never destroy? Why would you just stay out of the way if the conflict is eternal?
Rey's entire plotline was accepting that her parents abandoned her for nothing. Family drama.
Rey and Kylo are the emo star crossed lovers romance plot. Not "family" drama, per se, but I figured that fits into it.
Finn's story is A) not belonging where he is, and B) chasing the girl that leads him somewhere else. Both times.
Kylo's hangup is being betrayed by his uncle, conflict with killing his parents, idolizing his grandfather. Kylo is literally family drama the character.
Luke's drama is failing his nephew.
Leia and Han want to save their son.
Just like TFA, you keeping pointing out the plotlines that are not fleshed out the slightest in the actual movies themselves. I would be thrilled if the movies were actually about those themes. Instead we have some "fill in the blank" context and really, really simplistic excuse plots to move the characters forward on their family/romance drama.
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The Rey/Kylo thing is not a romance. Rey just wants to save him from Snoke and the dark side. Kylo might be into her, but in the way a 13 year old boy is into a girl he lives next door to.
And I didn't say the movie was devoid of family drama. I said it was about moving past it, or killing it. By the end of that movie, the family drama is effectively dead.
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Yes, so, TLJ was a movie devoted to family drama with space wizards. And the hope is that the 9th movie will not have any more.
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The problem with saying that it tries to go against conventions and break the tropes of the series is that it posists the perfect way for the series to break away from tropes and go against conventions only for the main characters to force themselves back into the same state they were 5 movies ago. Nothing the movie did changed star wars in any way but in the worse by cheapening and delegitimizeing star wars.
If the movie ended where it probably should have with Kylo and Ray standing on the deck of snokes super ship watching the resistance die while they announce the new galactic order of balance It would have been a shock to match I am your father. instead we get a set up to another tired rehash reinforcing the old way of doing things and people acting cowardly and dumb to continue the cycle of violence that the universe finds itself in.
Kylos whole character arc is about him coming to grips with who he is after everyone in his family has failed him includeing him failing himself. Ray is her trying to find her place in the galaxy without ever having a family. Finn is trying to find purpose away from the abuseive family of the storm troopers. Poe is trying to deal with getting his family of pilots killed and the new family he finds that expects things from him now. Rose is trying to justify her sisters death on the altar of the resistance.
All the main characters are about family. the movie reinforces that at every turn. The movie doesn't break a single trope or convention and instead insists to the audience through gotcha moments that things actual happen when they don't matter in the slightest. Leia space wizard didn't need to happen. Hyperspace jump didn't need to happen. Luke projection didn't need to happen. The casino plot didn't need to happen. The attempt to delay the first order didn't need to happen. Ray lifting the rocks didn't need to happen. Snoke dieing and the fight with the pretorians didn't need to happen.
None of the major beats that people will remember the movie for didn't need to happen because they had no real impact on the plot. At the end we're still empire vs rebels where everyone knows the good guys are going to win in the end because force wants balance. Its a terrible movie and people should feel bad for enjoying it just like the transformers movies.
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Man, tell us how you really feel? The tell us why we are garbage people for not agreeing?
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You're not garbage people for likeing it. I like bayhem myself in doses but I don't say that transformers breaks conventions with its jesus plots and dino robots. You can't make a science action movie in a sci fi universe. You can't be the bayhem and then act like you're above bayhem level of story telling.
You don't enjoy bayhem films because they're good movies you enjoy bayhem films because they're technical master pieces strung together by filler and a few pages of legitimate story telling. You're suppose to feel bad for enjoying them.
The original trilogy were technical master pieces but they also stuck to a plot structure and played within that structure. It wasn't high art but it had clear story development and built a universe..
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EPT
