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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On December 17 2017 06:03 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is + Show Spoiler +That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far? Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved. Anyway, onto TLJ not following up TFA: + Show Spoiler +
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found.
- The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless.
- Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!!
- Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it.
- Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers?
- The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie?
- Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience.
- Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta.
- "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3."
- "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone."
- BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Some of your complaints are solid, others are kinda riduculous (which is why you tried to be funny)
I don't wanna go into detail now, later when more people have seen the movie it should be more fun to discuss these things.
I will just say that TLJ is basically on the same lvl as TFA. A solid 7/10
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On December 17 2017 05:54 sashkata wrote:
Can we make a poll and add it to the OP somehow? Something like which did you like better TFA or TLJ? Just curious.
I definitely liked TLJ more. TFA was fun and all, but it's just such a re-thread of New Hope. Really liked Luke in this one.
Ok
Poll: Which Do You Think Is BestStar Wars - The Force Awakens (43) 62% Star Wars - The Last Jedi (26) 38% 69 total votes Your vote: Which Do You Think Is Best (Vote): Star Wars - The Force Awakens
(Vote): Star Wars - The Last Jedi
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On December 17 2017 06:03 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is + Show Spoiler +That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far? Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved. Anyway, onto TLJ not following up TFA: + Show Spoiler +
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found.
- The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless.
- Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!!
- Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it.
- Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers?
- The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie?
- Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience.
- Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta.
- "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3."
- "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone."
- BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Your summarizing is on point for me! You could pretty much say after watching the film Rian did not watch TFA lol
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
TFA wins for me on character development. Both had their advantages but ultimately TFA established a working set of main characters whereas TLJ does not.
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Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke?
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On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke?
Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo)
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The movie didn't grip me at all. The entire Ray/Ben stuff was top notch (it was really interesting to see how their relationship evolves) but the rest of the movie was pretty much some boring crap I couldn't give a damn about.
In my opinion they have introduced way too many characters and there just isn't enough screen time for them all to get any good plot lines and all suffer from it in the end.
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On December 17 2017 07:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke? Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo)
There is nothing wrong with his interactions with Rey in a vacuum, but his character is a complete bastardizarion of what he was.
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On December 17 2017 07:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 07:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke? Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo) There is nothing wrong with his interactions with Rey in a vacuum, but his character is a complete bastardizarion of what he was.
He changed, that's what people do over the years. There still was a lot of old Luke in him i think.
Overall what they did with Luke was fantastic imo, way better than what fans would have wanted.
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On December 17 2017 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 07:11 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 07:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke? Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo) There is nothing wrong with his interactions with Rey in a vacuum, but his character is a complete bastardizarion of what he was. He changed, that's what people do over the years. There still was a lot of old Luke in him i think. Overall what they did with Luke was fantastic imo, way better than what fans would have wanted.
I think that you're going to find yourself in the minority on this one. The movie is getting hammered in the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.
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I think Luke in this movie was an interesting character that deserved a place in the Star Wars universe. But he definitely didn't seem much like the original trilogy Luke; for all the faults of the old EU I think EU!Luke did a better job with that. Which might have been since we skipped seeing him for 30 (?) years. But that didn't really stop Legacy of the Force Luke from still feeling like Luke when I read it while skipping everything post Young Jedi Knights.
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I have my own review and my own video, but Angry Joe's video really highlights most of my opinions in a better and more organized way, well with the exception of my complaint that the movie is unoriginal.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 17 2017 06:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 06:03 Volband wrote:On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is + Show Spoiler +That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far? Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved. Anyway, onto TLJ not following up TFA: + Show Spoiler +
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found.
- The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless.
- Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!!
- Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it.
- Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers?
- The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie?
- Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience.
- Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta.
- "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3."
- "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone."
- BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Some of your complaints are solid, others are kinda riduculous (which is why you tried to be funny) I don't wanna go into detail now, later when more people have seen the movie it should be more fun to discuss these things. I will just say that TLJ is basically on the same lvl as TFA. A solid 7/10
I presented some points jokingly, but I was serious about them. Obviously not all of them are equally important, but they all show Rian's complete lack of understanding of TFA.
And I'm so tired of people praising him for his bravery in this episode, when a.) he wasn't THAT brave and b.) look at what it cost us!! He selfishly threw everything away to pump up his own part in this trilogy and let episode IX rot in a dumpster!
By the end of ESB we learned that Vader is Luke's father, Luke was disarmed (he-he-he, some TLJ level of humor for you folks), Han was betrayed and frozen, the Empire looked stronger and unbeatable as ever, and we had no idea how anyone will beat Vader, not to mention the mysterious Emperor!
By the end of TLJ + Show Spoiler +we have the unresolved conflict of an untrained Jedi (is she a Jedi yet btw?) and an untrained Sith (is he a Si-- oh fuck this movie...) and that is all. Am I hyped about the inevitable battle of two confused kids? No, I am not. Love the characters, but without father figures (Luke, Snoke, Yoda, Palpatine, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Windu...) or an interesting plot being left in the air I just can't for the life of me be hyped up.
Extremely selfish writing, and I think the way J.J. will solve it is that he will basically write the script for two following movies and will tell the tl;dr of the first one in the crawling text of Episode IX. You can't save this shit any other way.
On December 17 2017 07:43 Vindicare605 wrote:I have my own review and my own video, but Angry Joe's video really highlights most of my opinions in a better and more organized way, well with the exception of my complaint that the movie is unoriginal. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL5oCP0VIEI
As obnoxious as Joe can be, I just finished this vid as well and they bring up some very, very valid points.
Just ignore everything that Dell says. :D
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Honestly after sitting on it for two days I'm leaning fairly strongly towards the "not so great" camp. I was kind of the opposite on TFA, in that it sort of improved with further consideration. I'm starting to see it as mostly something akin to an Avengers movie, which is flashy and fun to watch, possibly multiple times, but you can't help but notice how much it shits on the continuity of the movies that come before and on the most compelling characters' personalities.
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I liked the movie, especially how subversive it was towards fan expectations for certain characters. I do understand the criticism though. Some of the other plot-lines weren't handled as elegantly as the Luke-Rey-Kylo plot-line, and the movie did feel long though simultaneously frantic at times. I guess if people put more weight into those plot weaknesses and didn't enjoy the subversiveness of some of the other elements, then that dislike is understandable. I didn't think some of those plot flaws were as unreasonable, though the movie did jump the shark in a few scenes.
It may not be the most elegant or flawless film, but I thought TLJ had some really cool ideas that I'm interested to see Disney pursue to differentiate the new canon from the old Legends EU.
+ Show Spoiler +I especially liked what they did with Luke, and can understand how fans would hate that approach. He doesn't become a badass that swings around a laser sword and uses superpowers to single-handedly take down an entire army or empire. They teased that he might, but he didn't, and they even made himself tease the very idea. He goes down not in violence but in peace, becoming a martyr whose legend will impact the galaxy than any more physical deeds from his lone self.
He'll likely show up again as a ghost, but I like the idea that the Force is so much more than Jedi vs Sith fighting each other with lightsabers and powers for generations. It's very spiritual and about peace, emotion, and balance, and I can see this era of the franchise try to move into that direction for its resolution. I wish TLJ could've explored that aspect more, but it's already packed with plot-lines.
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On December 17 2017 08:15 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly after sitting on it for two days I'm leaning fairly strongly towards the "not so great" camp. I was kind of the opposite on TFA, in that it sort of improved with further consideration. I'm starting to see it as mostly something akin to an Avengers movie, which is flashy and fun to watch, possibly multiple times, but you can't help but notice how much it shits on the continuity of the movies that come before and on the most compelling characters' personalities.
I'm reserving judgment until I see the movie again, which is why I haven't given a real review yet. Like I said earlier in the thread, both TFA and Rogue One took a few viewings for me to appreciate. However, there are some things about TLJ that I really do not like. In addition to the bizarre re-write of Luke, there are so many wasted characters that I really am having a hard time figuring out what Rian Johnson was thinking. The only characters whose progression really makes sense are Kylo Ren and Finn. And Finn's storyline is a shitshow and waste of film. Lastly, and while I usually am inclined to give great leeway to artists to put whatever politics that they want into their work, I felt like I was really beaten over the head with some SJW bullshit in this film. From the forced and artificial female power dynamics, to the emasculation of the male heroes, to the token inclusion of the fat asian chick -- there was just too much here to ignore, particularly when all of this was being thrown into a beloved franchise. The worst thing that Disney has done to the franchise since taking it over is forcing moral ambiguity into everything. That's the exact opposite of what Star Wars is fundamentally about.
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On December 17 2017 01:04 Pandemona wrote:
I would say Hamil is ahead in fairness, he wasn't good in the old triology the worst actor in it a by a mile. But Rey is the worst in the new triology and in the last film was just robotic at best, awful acting and i don't normally notice. Just could not connect with her at all.
Also the reviews of this film are so wrong, please do not read any of the reviews out there from press people. Go find a forum if you are debating whether to pay for this film now or wait for stream/it's on regular TV!
I went to see the movie with 3 friends. Altho we were kinda dissapointed the way they handled some chars. Overall we quite liked the movie. I cant stand Rey's british accent tho. Just doesnt suit the star wars universe to sound like ur from uk.
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I would rather watch the prequels all after each other then watch this pile of garbage again. It does more damage to star wars as a property then If people took the Holiday special seriously and as an in cannon movie. Its not that its simply illogical it has made foundation choices that were worse then what they could have done. Actors are given set up and then wasted or are just killed off for no real gain to the story. Entire scenes aren't dark they're just poorly lit. There is no one that can explain what is even going on in the universe to any reasonable degree. The Milk scene, Minorities must be kept separate from the whites. Mutineers can be forgiven and are "dangerous" which is apparently a positive trait now. the First Order are just lazy incompetents and kylo isn't anything special.
+ Show Spoiler +Luke projects himself and something from the falcon across the galaxy and then poofs into the force. Apparently the jedi are from a tree and yoda destroys the jedi order? Leia becomes a literal fucking wizard and super cheats death for no reason and no positive impact on the plot for the rest of the movie.
I want to go on for 30 minutes about the ending of the movie but It would decent into rambling nonsense faster then this post did.
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One point I definitely missed some others might have as well about the future of the Jedi:
+ Show Spoiler +Rey stole all the books from the tree before leaving, so Yoda didn't actually destroy anything.
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Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy  )
On December 17 2017 09:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:One point I definitely missed some others might have as well about the future of the Jedi: + Show Spoiler +Rey stole all the books from the tree before leaving, so Yoda didn't actually destroy anything.
I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
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