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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Page 14

Forum Index > Media & Entertainment
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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10866 Posts
December 17 2017 00:40 GMT
#261
Just saw it.


Wow, its bad, like really really really bad. Barely anything makes sense.. Ugh.
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 06:26:04
December 17 2017 06:24 GMT
#262
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
December 17 2017 06:43 GMT
#263
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
I mean that subplot was so worthless. Fin is getting rolled down to the brig. They arrive at the brig and do their dance of hatching the plot to stop the interwarp scanning. DJ happens to be in the brig because he was one of the people rose stunned earlier trying to bail like finn. The timer gets eliminated because the fuel needed to escape is put in the transports so they will be able to make it all the way to the secret base in time. Everything in the movie happens normally and nothing changes. Leia is caught in the debris instead of killed when the shield stops atmo from escaping allowing the rebels to get back on the bridge to repair in and use the ship more. She doesn't become a literal space wizard and nothing in the story changes. Ghost Yoda doesn't say much he lightnings the tree but responds when luke tries to save the books that rey stole them on her way out. Luke smiles and the two watch the tree burn while talking about why the tree is a thing. Plot is better we fill in a couple holes and it makes the ending scene no less impactful but allows people to see them and smile instead of be confused if they are what they think they are.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
December 17 2017 06:58 GMT
#264
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
December 17 2017 07:53 GMT
#265
On December 17 2017 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.

+ Show Spoiler +
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy,
arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.

It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.

But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.

Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.

Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII,
where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.

For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or...
anything man, anything.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
December 17 2017 08:46 GMT
#266
On December 17 2017 16:53 Volband wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.

+ Show Spoiler +
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy,
arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.

It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.

But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.

Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.

Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII,
where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.

For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or...
anything man, anything.

+ Show Spoiler +
I don't think Rey is currently adequate as a mentor, and I do agree that the execution of those ideas had flaws. I think Luke purposely wasn't going to give her a thorough training, and though she had a lot of raw talent and power and could fight, wisdom she did not have. There were moments where it almost seemed like she was flirting with elements of the dark side, though they were fleeting and not fleshed out. Rey has room to grow despite not getting much development in this film, and she still has a long way to go from fighter to teacher unless Disney decides to Mary Sue that up too.

I still think the story of the Jedi is compelling at the moment. Luke tried to bring them back the old fashioned way, but that failed. Now we have two flawed individuals, Rey and Kylo, at the helm of the new generation, unknown as to where it will go. It's room for something different from the old EU, which is interesting to me. I assume there will be a bigger time skip and room for more character development in the next film, and Kylo may have a hard time keeping hold over the galaxy when resistance springs up beyond those 15 people.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
December 17 2017 13:02 GMT
#267
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 13:58:04
December 17 2017 13:50 GMT
#268
On December 17 2017 22:02 Pandemona wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!

+ Show Spoiler +
Yoda pointed out Luke's hypocrisy, that he never even read them. Which was a good scene, I really liked it,
but it made no sense that Rey has them now. First of all, you won't learn how to cook by reading half a dozen cookbooks. Then keep in mind, Luke was a harsh critic of the Jedi antics and how they did many stuff badly (I guess he had time to watch the prequels there), so what good does a bunch of antiquated book will do for Rey and the future of the Force users?

I am absolutely flabbergasted how people are preoccupied by a flying Leia which - if you reaaaaallly think about it -
kinda makes sense, even if it looks silly, but no one worries about the future of this story. Many people are sucking off Rian for being brave with Rey's parents, killing Snoke and basically pulling a tabula rasa, but they forget that it's like burning bridges. It looks amazing, but then the flame dies out and you are left with ashes with nowhere to go.

Is there a secret Jedi sect somewhere which can do something useful with those books? No. Is there some mighty Sith lord out there to hunt/pursue Kylo? No. Is there ANY meaningful question left hanging? No.

Mark my words and screenshot this: J.J. will have to pull things out of his ass, and people will jump at his throat for introducing brand new, mysterious things in the last episode, while Godemperor Rian Johnson was so brave and
unorthodox to do away with those!

I don't blame casual watchers for this oversight, because they care about one thing: did they enjoy TLJ? Yes or no and they move on. But if you are just slightly a fan who actually cares about this franchise, it is slo glaringly obvious that this very much watchable movie was actually a trainwreck story-wise.

And to make another jab at Rian: not only he forgot to watch TFA, but he also missed an important quote from the OT:
"do or do not, there is no try." You either make a heavy movie to swallow with lots of shockers and scenes which will be discussed even 50 years from now, or you make a feelgood, by-the-book movie like TFA or RotS. There is no middle-ground. You can't burn people alive and show a goofy robot ball bouncing and screetching around. You can't copy half your movie from previous SW episodes and hope that people will only talk about the other half, which is actually innovative. You can't promote a movie as one of the darkest in the franchise, when in the end you direct a scene where the POWER OF LOVE AFTER A SHITTY TINDER DATE is more important than the entire existance of the Resistance. The same Resistance which were shoved down our throat in the very last scene, implying that you can never get rid of it - unless you are in love.


On December 17 2017 17:46 eviltomahawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 16:53 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.

+ Show Spoiler +
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy,
arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.

It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.

But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.

Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.

Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII,
where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.

For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or...
anything man, anything.

+ Show Spoiler +
I don't think Rey is currently adequate as a mentor, and I do agree that the execution of those ideas had flaws. I think Luke purposely wasn't going to give her a thorough training, and though she had a lot of raw talent and power and could fight, wisdom she did not have. There were moments where it almost seemed like she was flirting with elements of the dark side, though they were fleeting and not fleshed out. Rey has room to grow despite not getting much development in this film, and she still has a long way to go from fighter to teacher unless Disney decides to Mary Sue that up too.

I still think the story of the Jedi is compelling at the moment. Luke tried to bring them back the old fashioned way, but that failed. Now we have two flawed individuals, Rey and Kylo, at the helm of the new generation, unknown as to where it will go. It's room for something different from the old EU, which is interesting to me. I assume there will be a bigger time skip and room for more character development in the next film, and Kylo may have a hard time keeping hold over the galaxy when resistance springs up beyond those 15 people.

+ Show Spoiler +
You know, if this movie would have ended by Kylo and Rey forging an alliance and making plans to train Force users, but not as Jedi or Sith, just simple training, while they have enemies out there (either Leia and the resistance if Rey stays with Kylo, or Snoke and the First Order if Kylo stays with Rey). Or you know what? Kill off Snoke for good!
Let's try a Jedi-Sith alliance, where they try to merge the best from each side! Will it work? No, but the answer to the question "why can't it work?" would make for an interesting last episode.

Though we would still need some kind of opponent... but hey, the writer's job to figure it out, right?
sekishusai
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
80 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 14:20:54
December 17 2017 14:19 GMT
#269
I added spoiler tags because eveyrone before me did but I wonder what anyone who has not watched the movie yet is looking for in this thread or if they have any hope of not reading spoilers at this point.

+ Show Spoiler +
Bah I'm really disappointed at it. Such a disappointment! I can't stand Kylo Ren as a villain, Snokes' death and the fact that Luke gave Rey basically no training at all is really annoying. It's unreal that they wasted the scene of the first contact between Luke and Rey with a stupid joke with Luke throwing the lightsaber out. When they showed the X-wing underwater I thought we might see some training but we got not at all. It doesn't make any sense that Rey is strong, there is no build up to her character, there is also no build up or improvement for Kylo. He is just a very emotional villain it seems. Meh tbh I hate, I hope they can some how fix it in the last movie.
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 14:21:36
December 17 2017 14:21 GMT
#270
On December 17 2017 23:19 sekishusai wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Bah I'm really disappointed at it. Such a disappointment! I can't stand Kylo Ren as a villain, Snokes' death and the fact that Luke gave Rey basically no training at all is really annoying. It's unreal that they wasted the scene of the first contact between Luke and Rey with a stupid joke with Luke throwing the lightsaber out. When they showed the X-wing underwater I thought we might see some training but we got not at all. It doesn't make any sense that Rey is strong, there is no build up to her character, there is also no build up or improvement for Kylo. He is just a very emotional villain it seems. Meh tbh I hate, I hope they can some how fix it in the last movie
.

You might want to use spoiler tag there buddy; not everyone saw it yet. :D

edit: nvm :D
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 14:48:34
December 17 2017 14:45 GMT
#271
I like it, even more then the TFA, but I felt that there was an even better movie in there if they just cut 30-40 minutes of it.+ Show Spoiler +
The casino /code breaker part, purple hair stories and at least some of the toys characters (Phasma, the red guards and the little furry)

Still a good time and the Jedi plot is compelling with great performance by Rey, Kylo and Luke (especially Mark Hamill)

It also was the most beautiful star wars movie and one the best looking movie I ever saw, there is some amazing shots in there.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland962 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 15:01:52
December 17 2017 15:01 GMT
#272
Good article that has a more positive tone:
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
December 17 2017 16:02 GMT
#273
On December 18 2017 00:01 hexhaven wrote:
Good article that has a more positive tone:
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/


I'm so sick of this defense point.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just because you intentionally shit all over fan theories doesn't mean your movie is a good movie. The plot is still a mess, the characters are still undeveloped, there are continuity/consistency problems EVERYWHERE in the movie, and no one still wants to talk about how much of the movie is blatantly copy pasted from Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

I'm so sick of this argument. Ok I get it, people like seeing fan theories cut to shreds, but that's just about ALL this movie did. It failed to tell a story, it just spent 2.5 hours ripping up the old stories.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
December 17 2017 16:02 GMT
#274
On December 17 2017 22:02 Pandemona wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!


+ Show Spoiler +
I believe Yoda said "there is nothing in those books she does not already know" or "hasn't already taken with her" so in true literal dick Jedi fashion he was lying to Luke since he knew she had taken the books already. He never said they were worthless per se.
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
December 17 2017 17:17 GMT
#275
On December 18 2017 01:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2017 22:02 Pandemona wrote:
On December 17 2017 15:24 Volband wrote:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote:
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*)
+ Show Spoiler +

Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie

Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )

I laughed so hard when I saw + Show Spoiler +
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon

This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.

And yes, at the end we saw that + Show Spoiler +
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much

Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!


+ Show Spoiler +
I believe Yoda said "there is nothing in those books she does not already know" or "hasn't already taken with her" so in true literal dick Jedi fashion he was lying to Luke since he knew she had taken the books already. He never said they were worthless per se.

Umm, he kinda did.

+ Show Spoiler +
Paraphrasing here but Yoda also pointed out to Luke that none of those books were impossible to put down while reading - which Luke never even did -, implying that they are either bad or boring. But he's main point was that Luke should not worry about them, but not because Rey has them.

Basically Yoda got to be the well fed goat while still keeping the Lettuce. Showed the unimportance of those books to Luke while also keeping them intact.
FranzF1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile1710 Posts
December 17 2017 19:23 GMT
#276
In my first viewing, for me it was an OK movie, 6/10. After my second viewing It got even better, solid 8/10 for me, probably one of the best SW movies.
Member #99999^99 of the fanclub of Grape, Reality and TurN
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 19:51:13
December 17 2017 19:48 GMT
#277
Okay, solid 5/10 for me, only for some visuals and the whole brand

It feels weird, like I'm missing Jar Jar.. :D and "Phantom Menace" script was a masterpiece in comparison to these one. At least it was with strong viallains like Darth Maul and lots of combats. And much less plot holes overall.
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
jimminy_kriket
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada5529 Posts
December 17 2017 20:27 GMT
#278
I really enjoyed The Force Awakens and I was super pumped for this movie. God was i let down.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Xarles
Profile Joined July 2011
459 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-17 21:26:33
December 17 2017 21:20 GMT
#279
New interview with Rian Johnson

Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?

RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.

But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.

rest of the interview here deadline.com
Volband
Profile Joined March 2011
Hungary6034 Posts
December 17 2017 21:34 GMT
#280
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote:
New interview with Rian Johnson

Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?

RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.

But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.

rest of the interview here deadline.com

I bet Lucas feels like a real dork now that he wrote ESB with RotJ already in mind, instead of freestyling it!
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