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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On December 17 2017 01:04 Pandemona wrote: I would say Hamil is ahead in fairness, he wasn't good in the old triology the worst actor in it a by a mile. But Rey is the worst in the new triology and in the last film was just robotic at best, awful acting and i don't normally notice. Just could not connect with her at all.
Also the reviews of this film are so wrong, please do not read any of the reviews out there from press people. Go find a forum if you are debating whether to pay for this film now or wait for stream/it's on regular TV!
She isn't great but still doing better than a lot of the OT people imo. That's by far the biggest weakness of the OT; the acting oftentimes feels like B movies. In the new trilogy Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac are excellent actors and the others still do a decent job.
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On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Yeah i agree with that, Finn due to the actor playing him makes the character work, where as Rey, shit chracter and awful actress it seems.
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Visually, its an amazingly beautifully shot movie with a beautiful soundtrack to go with it.
Plot-wise and dialogue-wise, it was a little disappointing though
All in all a solid movie
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
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Just watched it again. Ugh... this is legit bad. I don't want them to give this man (Rian Johnson) a trilogy. He might work well with a second writer and director, but he completely lost the plot with this one.
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It's about the same as TFA imo, it does some things better and other things worse. Probably a slight edge to TLJ though
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I'm surprised by all the negativity. There are some things that I didn't like, but overall was quite an enjoyable movie to watch.
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On December 17 2017 04:17 Korlin wrote: I'm surprised by all the negativity. There are some things that I didn't like, but overall was quite an enjoyable movie to watch. An enjoyable movie to watch with some popcorn, but a terrible movie to look forward for its final installment. J.J. set something in motion and Rian spent half the movie destroying it. Now we are left with 1 movie to end this trilogy, and it is a mess.
After watching Empire for the first time, I thought my head will explode because i had soooo many questions and I was sooo excited about everything. A million and one plotlines were left open. After TLJ, I'm like meh, just give me that Obi-Wan movie.
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On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
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On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler +You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable
On December 17 2017 04:40 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 04:17 Korlin wrote: I'm surprised by all the negativity. There are some things that I didn't like, but overall was quite an enjoyable movie to watch. An enjoyable movie to watch with some popcorn, but a terrible movie to look forward for its final installment. J.J. set something in motion and Rian spent half the movie destroying it. Now we are left with 1 movie to end this trilogy, and it is a mess. After watching Empire for the first time, I thought my head will explode because i had soooo many questions and I was sooo excited about everything. A million and one plotlines were left open. After TLJ, I'm like meh, just give me that Obi-Wan movie.
Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon.
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On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
+ Show Spoiler +Bothered me too. Why not tell people in commanding positions what your plans are? The girl who helped Poe didn't even know the plan ffs and she was on the bridge.
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On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler +You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable
But her plan + Show Spoiler +would be doomed if there were ANY moles on the ship anyway, since everyone would be evacuated and since they're being tracked instantly the mole could tell the Empire instantly. Under those circumstances you tell everyone the plan so you don't have a psychotic hot-shot pilot ruin it. And when you DO tell the pilot the plan, you don't omit the part about having a secret base on hand that you're trying to reach.
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On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon. I compared the two movies in terms of how well they followed up from their previous episode, and how well they set the scene up for their next episode. Empire built upon ANH while TLJ wanted nothing to do with TFA. Rian pulled some brave stuff off, but that was not one of them, that was just stupid.
There is no reason to be excited for episode IX other than the fact that it will be a Star Wars movie.
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On December 17 2017 05:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler +You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable But her plan + Show Spoiler +would be doomed if there were ANY moles on the ship anyway, since everyone would be evacuated and since they're being tracked instantly the mole could tell the Empire instantly. Under those circumstances you tell everyone the plan so you don't have a psychotic hot-shot pilot ruin it. And when you DO tell the pilot the plan, you don't omit the part about having a secret base on hand that you're trying to reach.
+ Show Spoiler +I still think it's better to not tell absolutely everyone the details of the plan. All they need to know is to evacuate the ship. Poe would have been high enough in order to know most likely, but he and the general lady were on bad terms already so it's understandable. I can see why it might look annoying, as i said it's the typical "pls talk" situation but not the worst i have seen
On December 17 2017 05:09 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon. I compared the two movies in terms of how well they followed up from their previous episode, and how well they set the scene up for their next episode. Empire built upon ANH while TLJ wanted nothing to do with TFA. Rian pulled some brave stuff off, but that was not one of them, that was just stupid. There is no reason to be excited for episode IX other than the fact that it will be a Star Wars movie.
Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is + Show Spoiler +That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
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Can we make a poll and add it to the OP somehow? Something like which did you like better TFA or TLJ? Just curious.
I definitely liked TLJ more. TFA was fun and all, but it's just such a re-thread of New Hope. Really liked Luke in this one.
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On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler + The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The writers seem to have tried to make things unpredictable by doing the opposite of what people where expecting: - Luke accepts lightsaber and trains Rey in the force---> Luke refuses lightsaber and Rey - Epic Snoke fight ----> Snoke dies like a chump - Poe saves rebellion by going against his orders ---> Poe fucks up - Leia dies in space ---> Leia miraculously doesn't die - Finn saves the day ---> Finn doesn't save the day (twice).
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie.
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On December 17 2017 05:54 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler + The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie.
+ Show Spoiler +I would agree with the Luke scenario, that was actually a bit silly. At the same time things along those lines happen in every Star Wars movie. I don't see why it's a dealbreaker here and not in the OT for example. About the natural exit, pretty sure the falcon sees the wolf creatures escape there
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On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is + Show Spoiler +That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far? Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved.
Anyway, onto TLJ not following up TFA:
+ Show Spoiler + - So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found. - The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless. - Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!! - Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it. - Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers? - The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie? - Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience. - Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta. - "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3." - "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone." - BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
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On December 17 2017 06:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 05:54 Saechiis wrote:On December 17 2017 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:On December 17 2017 03:28 LegalLord wrote:On December 17 2017 01:51 xDaunt wrote:On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote:Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around. Oh well. Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena. Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead. It didn't help that + Show Spoiler +the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway). + Show Spoiler + The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie. + Show Spoiler +I would agree with the Luke scenario, that was actually a bit silly. At the same time things along those lines happen in every Star Wars movie. I don't see why it's a dealbreaker here and not in the OT for example. About the natural exit, pretty sure the falcon sees the wolf creatures escape there
I haven't had this issue in other Star Wars movies. I feel the credibility of this movie hinged heavily on the mystery behind Snoke and the anchors of Leia and Luke Skywalker. With Snoke and Luke out of the picture there's only Leia who lost all credibility by not dying in space. It is trying to make me believe Rey and Kylo Ren are the epitome of power in the universe right now. I think in most movies there was a looming confrontation or mystery that distracted me from these kind of details, but I'm really not looking forward to anything in the next movie.
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