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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote:New interview with Rian Johnson Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything. But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose. rest of the interview here deadline.com
What in gods name gave him this idea? Yeah let's just throw out everything the first movie was building to, all the questions we were left with and totally re-write everything! Ugh this movie tilts me so hard. I would rather it didn't exist and we were left hanging like with half-life 3.
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what made this a brilliant star wars film was that it decided to break all of the rules and all of the themes in order to come back full circle to those same themes after acknowledging the flaws.
the hero of the story is not the child of anyone important; the reveal of rey's parentage is not of a weapons designer, a senator, a hero, a jedi or a sith lord. it's of worthless nameless scum. the hero is a nobody who came from nowhere.
the brave rebel pilot leads constant sorties against the odds and makes daring missions to destroy the latest and biggest threats. and yet the constant X wing explosions and ships being destroyed this time are not just stock battle scenes, they were valuable assets, invaluable and irreplacable.
there's a constant parallel between The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back, but the director chooses to put the same elements through brutal reality.
this time, going to light speed to escape does not work anymore, there is no more escape. the heroes are forced to contend with impending and real demise.
the rebels do not live to fight another day, they barely survive in the faintest of terms. three large ships, 30 transport vessels and yet by the end of the film the remaining Resistance are barely a dozen on the falcon.
the revelation of "Luke I am your father" is not a revelation, it's simply an acceptance of the truth. it's not met with despair or denial. unlike luke, rey wants to take that hand and no longer be alone.
the traitorous gambling middleman character who is shown to be capable of caring, does not double back after betraying the protagonists. trusting him does not result in a new ally or any positive developments for the rebellion. his involvement is directly responsible for the obliteration of most of the transport ships.
the opening battle is placed as the final battle. the snow speeders sortie does not accomplish anything. they do not cripple any walkers, they do not have a mission accomplishment buying time or shutting down the laser. their effort was entirely worthless.
rey does not find a powerful jedi master, someone who will teach the ways of the force and the way to become a jedi. she finds a flawed old man, who was directly responsible for helping create the villain of the film.
i found myself continually disappointed by this film, because i continually recognized these elements and parallels, and saw how they were twisted.
i found myself expecting constantly for the light at the end of the tunnel to come through, for the story to suddenly stop becoming dark and for the triumphant return of the kind of story where the heroes are able to pull through and win, fortunes turn, the efforts shown are not in vain.
i think the most stunning and bravest example of how far the film was going to go was the Gondor Calls For Aid scene. The speeder sortie was meant to buy time for help from the outlying star systems.
i was expecting waiting for the alliance fleet to appear and rescue. i was waiting expecting for luke's X wing to appear.
and it never came. the help never came.
that was what made this film brilliant, it was because the message was this: its not about lightsabers, it's not about daring missions, it's not about destroying the enemy or being someone's son or daughter
rey is the hero not because she was someone's daughter, it was because she happened to be in the right time and place and help BB-8.
even if help never comes and the darkness really is complete and hope is nowhere to be found, you can be that spark
even if you failed and the order was destroyed, and everything went wrong, it means that the next order can choose to build something better
even if this time the defeat is complete, the first order struck back and won completely and devastatingly, and everything has been broken, including the lightsaber, we can still fight to protect what we love
this star wars movie was brilliant and touching for me because it did everything it could to break down and criticize almost everything about star wars.
the cliches the "basicness" of the story,
the expectation that things will work out, that people will be better and be heroic or that bravery will be rewarded always
but in doing so, it also makes an even greater effort to make the case that what star wars says and stands for is enduring and is valuable in itself, even if you break the light saber in half.
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As someone who really hasnt ever been that into Star Wars,
+ Show Spoiler +I liked this movie a LOT until the end, I feel like they were juggling some fun stuff and then they just slipped and every ball just went somewhere random and I just was left thinking... what?
Why the fuck was everything in the god damned end a Force Illusion? Why have Luke DIE that way? Its pointless, having him sacrifice himself to Kylo Ren and actually meet him face to face would provide more drama, and the drama of "ha! It was an illusion this whole time Kylo!" wouldn't be underminded because, like, it'd have served a purpose of preserving his life instead of... serving no purpose because he could've just died in that fight in the flesh. I hated that bit.
I also gravely wish that the Jedi dissolution was given more reason, I mean as the opposite end of a negative (the Sith) I would've found it far more interesting to have them do the grey jedi thing where they appreciate the balance from within rather than trying to create the balance by being Jedi because there are Sith and all that shit. It would've been really cool to see Kylo and Rey actually attempt to meet in a grey-area of the force between them and found a new (second?) order of Jedi. I dunno. I felt like there were ways to go with an actual "Jedi are bad and Sith are bad, lets try true balance from within" rather than, "Whoops, hey, actually I take it back, JEDI GUYS! JEDI!"
I also have no appreciation for why Admiral Lady didnt just fucking tell Poe her plan what does it accomplish to keep a known hothead who clearly doesnt trust you in the dark? Tell the fucking man, "hey, we're gonna send some pods with all our people down to the planet base there and they'll scooch right on past us, easy peasy, so we're gonna make it" instead shes a dick to him, and hes a fuckin hotheaded nut so he sends a mission that gets lots of the resistance killed because... she didnt tell him the fucking plan and he can't be trusted to NOT act. Why not tell him? I dont get it.
Also was Yoda a practical effect? Cause I found him... ugly and jarring...
But uh, I can forgive a lot of it, but the end just did no work to satisfyingly tie up or continue any of the ends in any of the ways Id have preferred. I can deal with the Poe shit, but the Rey-Force shit at the end was just... ugh.
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I think it's a good movie but mostly due to the visual and sound design.
Some scenes absolutely looks stunning but some also made the whole cinema laughed/shocked at how bad they were.
The pacing is also quite bad and could have very well been a good whole 30mins shorter.
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28095 Posts
On December 18 2017 07:50 Zambrah wrote:As someone who really hasnt ever been that into Star Wars, + Show Spoiler +I liked this movie a LOT until the end, I feel like they were juggling some fun stuff and then they just slipped and every ball just went somewhere random and I just was left thinking... what?
Why the fuck was everything in the god damned end a Force Illusion? Why have Luke DIE that way? Its pointless, having him sacrifice himself to Kylo Ren and actually meet him face to face would provide more drama, and the drama of "ha! It was an illusion this whole time Kylo!" wouldn't be underminded because, like, it'd have served a purpose of preserving his life instead of... serving no purpose because he could've just died in that fight in the flesh. I hated that bit.
I also gravely wish that the Jedi dissolution was given more reason, I mean as the opposite end of a negative (the Sith) I would've found it far more interesting to have them do the grey jedi thing where they appreciate the balance from within rather than trying to create the balance by being Jedi because there are Sith and all that shit. It would've been really cool to see Kylo and Rey actually attempt to meet in a grey-area of the force between them and found a new (second?) order of Jedi. I dunno. I felt like there were ways to go with an actual "Jedi are bad and Sith are bad, lets try true balance from within" rather than, "Whoops, hey, actually I take it back, JEDI GUYS! JEDI!"
I also have no appreciation for why Admiral Lady didnt just fucking tell Poe her plan what does it accomplish to keep a known hothead who clearly doesnt trust you in the dark? Tell the fucking man, "hey, we're gonna send some pods with all our people down to the planet base there and they'll scooch right on past us, easy peasy, so we're gonna make it" instead shes a dick to him, and hes a fuckin hotheaded nut so he sends a mission that gets lots of the resistance killed because... she didnt tell him the fucking plan and he can't be trusted to NOT act. Why not tell him? I dont get it.
Also was Yoda a practical effect? Cause I found him... ugly and jarring...
But uh, I can forgive a lot of it, but the end just did no work to satisfyingly tie up or continue any of the ends in any of the ways Id have preferred. I can deal with the Poe shit, but the Rey-Force shit at the end was just... ugh.
+ Show Spoiler + I had that thought originally about the force projection, and the only thing I can come up with is that maybe he didn't want to give Kylo the satisfaction of killing him face to face? Maybe he thought it would bring him further to the dark side? Who knows tbh. I'm happy they brought force projections into the movies though. Also couldn't Luke like idk, just kill Kylo himself or are we supposed to believe he's somehow stronger than Luke already.
Overall I enjoyed the movie. Lots of continuity issues, but I'm just there to enjoy some cool scenes and see cool explosions so I don't let that stuff bother me. + Show Spoiler + Not a fan of the way Snoke died, or even the fact that he died at all with literally no character progression leading up to it. It doesn't even make sense from Kylo Ren's point of view as well other than to prove he's retarded and just wants to make his road to Universal domination even harder. Although the whole Kylo + Rey teamup fight was really cool imo
I have to say though, reading that Rian Johnson interview posted earlier really makes me fucking sad. How can you be that careless when making a movie KNOWING that there is going to be another one. I feel bad for JJ coming in to fix this shit.
+ Show Spoiler +btw I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been discussed here already. Did the kid at the end use the force to grab the broom? Curious what they are trying to imply with that. I guess it could be just another random ass Rian Johnson idea where he was like "LOL lets see what JJ can do with this shit in EP 9".
TLDR - I'm fully aware of the issues that everyone seems to have and I can agree with them. But I just shut my brain off and had a fun time watching it.
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Canada8989 Posts
For the Luke thing + Show Spoiler +I personally enjoyed the force illusion a lot. It came to me as more of a character moment for Kylo not being able to find his place. A lot of his (and Rey) arc was about letting go of the past, trying to kill the past (killing his father, letting go of his Vader crush, killing snoke) but he never actually is able to let go. And when he his fighting Luke he his fighting literally nothing, it's just a ghost of the past that's in front of him (Luke even looked younger with his RTJ black gear on). Kylo is unable to actually let go of the past, there is no reason for him to get down on the ground he would have just won if he was able to ignore his past, ignore Luke, even when he blast him with a thousand cannon he doesn't realize that's something his wrong.
As for the critiques on the force function, it didin't bother me, the force was always pretty vague anyway it always seemed pretty stupid to me that an all powerful force in the universe made you jump 20 feet into the air
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+ Show Spoiler +The force illusion thing would be better if Luke didn't die. It sort of undermined the entire idea of "lol, Luke played him so hard" when Luke just died at the end anyways as we expected. A bad call.
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28095 Posts
On December 18 2017 10:01 Nakajin wrote:For the Luke thing + Show Spoiler +I personally enjoyed the force illusion a lot. It came to me as more of a character moment for Kylo not being able to find his place. A lot of his (and Rey) arc was about letting go of the past, trying to kill the past (killing his father, letting go of his Vader crush, killing snoke) but he never actually is able to let go. And when he his fighting Luke he his fighting literally nothing, it's just a ghost of the past that's in front of him (Luke even looked younger with his RTJ black gear on). Kylo is unable to actually let go of the past, there is no reason for him to get down on the ground he would have just won if he was able to ignore his past, ignore Luke, even when he blast him with a thousand cannon he doesn't realize that's something his wrong.
As for the critiques on the force function, it didin't bother me, the force was always pretty vague anyway it always seemed pretty stupid to me that an all powerful force in the universe made you jump 20 feet into the air
+ Show Spoiler +Yea, you would think Kylo knows what a Force projection is unless Luke is a shit tier teacher lol
@LegalLord + Show Spoiler + I believe you are supposed to die after doing that although I guess that is no longer canon anyway so he could have potentially lived. Also I totally thought he was ok when he sat up afterwards then he just vanished which was disappointing. On another note, I really expected Luke to get killed off at some point although I thought it would happen in EP 9.
edit: + Show Spoiler + also fire the writer who thought it was funny for Luke to brush his shoulder off after he took the cannon fire
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Canada8989 Posts
On December 18 2017 10:03 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The force illusion thing would be better if Luke didn't die. It sort of undermined the entire idea of "lol, Luke played him so hard" when Luke just died at the end anyways as we expected. A bad call.
+ Show Spoiler +I think he just gave up like Obiwan did after he felt like it was time for his story to end, after he gave his final lesson to Kylo, but hey to each their analysis and taste
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Thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision
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On December 18 2017 10:26 ahw wrote:Thoughts + Show Spoiler +Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision
There's always been guards. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Royal_Guard
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On December 18 2017 10:39 jimminy_kriket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 10:26 ahw wrote:Thoughts + Show Spoiler +Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision There's always been guards. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Royal_Guard
I get that they are in the extended universe or whatever but in the original trilogy they aren’t in it until a few shots in rotj. Likely because these characters are more menacing when they are alone.
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On December 18 2017 07:48 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
what made this a brilliant star wars film was that it decided to break all of the rules and all of the themes in order to come back full circle to those same themes after acknowledging the flaws.
the hero of the story is not the child of anyone important; the reveal of rey's parentage is not of a weapons designer, a senator, a hero, a jedi or a sith lord. it's of worthless nameless scum. the hero is a nobody who came from nowhere.
the brave rebel pilot leads constant sorties against the odds and makes daring missions to destroy the latest and biggest threats. and yet the constant X wing explosions and ships being destroyed this time are not just stock battle scenes, they were valuable assets, invaluable and irreplacable.
there's a constant parallel between The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back, but the director chooses to put the same elements through brutal reality.
this time, going to light speed to escape does not work anymore, there is no more escape. the heroes are forced to contend with impending and real demise.
the rebels do not live to fight another day, they barely survive in the faintest of terms. three large ships, 30 transport vessels and yet by the end of the film the remaining Resistance are barely a dozen on the falcon.
the revelation of "Luke I am your father" is not a revelation, it's simply an acceptance of the truth. it's not met with despair or denial. unlike luke, rey wants to take that hand and no longer be alone.
the traitorous gambling middleman character who is shown to be capable of caring, does not double back after betraying the protagonists. trusting him does not result in a new ally or any positive developments for the rebellion. his involvement is directly responsible for the obliteration of most of the transport ships.
the opening battle is placed as the final battle. the snow speeders sortie does not accomplish anything. they do not cripple any walkers, they do not have a mission accomplishment buying time or shutting down the laser. their effort was entirely worthless.
rey does not find a powerful jedi master, someone who will teach the ways of the force and the way to become a jedi. she finds a flawed old man, who was directly responsible for helping create the villain of the film.
i found myself continually disappointed by this film, because i continually recognized these elements and parallels, and saw how they were twisted.
i found myself expecting constantly for the light at the end of the tunnel to come through, for the story to suddenly stop becoming dark and for the triumphant return of the kind of story where the heroes are able to pull through and win, fortunes turn, the efforts shown are not in vain.
i think the most stunning and bravest example of how far the film was going to go was the Gondor Calls For Aid scene. The speeder sortie was meant to buy time for help from the outlying star systems.
i was expecting waiting for the alliance fleet to appear and rescue. i was waiting expecting for luke's X wing to appear.
and it never came. the help never came.
that was what made this film brilliant, it was because the message was this: its not about lightsabers, it's not about daring missions, it's not about destroying the enemy or being someone's son or daughter
rey is the hero not because she was someone's daughter, it was because she happened to be in the right time and place and help BB-8.
even if help never comes and the darkness really is complete and hope is nowhere to be found, you can be that spark
even if you failed and the order was destroyed, and everything went wrong, it means that the next order can choose to build something better
even if this time the defeat is complete, the first order struck back and won completely and devastatingly, and everything has been broken, including the lightsaber, we can still fight to protect what we love
this star wars movie was brilliant and touching for me because it did everything it could to break down and criticize almost everything about star wars.
the cliches the "basicness" of the story,
the expectation that things will work out, that people will be better and be heroic or that bravery will be rewarded always
but in doing so, it also makes an even greater effort to make the case that what star wars says and stands for is enduring and is valuable in itself, even if you break the light saber in half.
I can appreciate some unexpected twists in the story, but basically twisting everything that could be twisted isn't that good. This lessens the impact of many scenes (not to mention some stuff established in previous installments). The only really good plot twist, that actually added some depth to the movie was the mutiny. And even this could be argued because the entire space chase scene could be dispensed with easily (and it would make more sense).
You're focusing so much on all those amazing unexpected things happening, but you completely forget to mention how they impact the overall pacing of the movie (which suffers greatly) and how low emotional impact 90% of it has.
Sure, this is nothing like Empire Strikes Back. It hasn't got as many memorable characters (if any at all), it does not get any real emotional response out of you, it does not have a coherent plot line. It's like an assortment of random scenes and ideas jumbled together and cut down a bit so that they more or less fit the first movie (think trying to fit cubes into triangle-shaped openings) but just barely in most cases. I just hope that the third movie won't be using round holes...
IRL I have not yet met a single person who would be swayed by this movie. Both SW fans and SW ignorants can agree that The Last Jedi was a mediocre movie at best with some cool action scenes here and there. A completely forgettable run-of-the-mill Hollywood production.
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How does the timeline of this movie work, anyway?
+ Show Spoiler +I've seen people say "the scenes aren't contemporaneous, you dummies." So Rey's scenes start immediately after TFA. Everyone else's start...days after TFA? Weeks? And in those days/weeks the Resistance was completely destroyed? But the timelines being separate doesn't make sense, because Rey and Kylo get hooked together telepathically, so the two timelines are concurrent. But *that* doesn't make sense, because we had a clear ticking clock for the Resistance so Rey couldn't have been on the planet for more than a day (and she clearly was). Does the planet just spin extra fast? Can Snoke hook people together into force bonds across time?
It felt like they were going for a "remember how in Empire the Rebellion was on their last legs even though they won in A New Hope?" but completely missed the fact that years elapsed in the timeline between the two movies. We didn't start Empire with with a continuous shot of Luke chilling on Yavin IV from A New Hope, after all.
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my post mentions those unexpected twists, but my assertion is that they're personally upsetting in many ways. unsatisfying.
that's the only part of my post you're responding to other than my conclusion that i enjoyed it
the film was upsetting and enjoyable and pleasing and upsetting because there are many many many allusions that are indirect or parallel all of the original trilogies movies and the basic story of the prequel.
it's like expecting a piece of chocolate and finding a piece of dark chocolate with no milk or sugar.
the movie finds its identity as a star wars movie that strips away a lot of the traditional elements and bends them, in order to demonstrate that the themes of star wars are where the real magic is.
rey lifting rocks, luke showing up with a laser sword isn't significant in of those things of itself. the mistake with a lot of people's perception with star wars is that's what they think it really is: that's what the film wanted to address.
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United States97276 Posts
Liked it less than rogue 1 but more than 7. Little too much homage to the original trilogy for my tastes but not as in your face as last time. They made a pretty clean slate for 9 though so I look forward to more originality there
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This is really werid for me because I'm never been a movie hater. I even find value in transformers movies and just find the dc movies to struggle in comparison to marvel movies quality. But man I really hate this movie in ways that make me hate the people that like the movie. Its spreading like a virus to everything else star wars in my head to be lesser because I watched it. I don't think I could have done a better job but thats about the only positive thing I can say about it.
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I think this might have been one of the most pointless movies in the franchise. You could cut out like, 70% of the film and turn it into a T.V special before the next episode and it would work better.
What sort of director and story writer takes a look at the theories going around regarding who the key players are, and decisively removes any and all intrigue from them - or just removes the character in general without us knowing anything more.
I do not under stand the point of this film, and it really drove the nail home that this trilogy is going to be completely terrible.
3/10.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote:New interview with Rian Johnson Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything. But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose. rest of the interview here deadline.com
What on earth is his problem to do that, why would you have a triology arc and not make them inter twine or even remotely close to eachother. This is so silly, what was he thinking! At least it explains alot. JJ next film going to be basically episode 7.5 then probably as he will continue from TFA as what it should have been probably, just he gets no snoke and no luke to work with, oh and no Leia. Going to be fun for him!
On December 18 2017 08:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
pep might not be exceptional in terms of making a bad team decent, we don't know that either way. But he's definitely exceptional at making great teams even greater. This City looks like the best team the premier league has ever seen. And even with this group of players, you can see Pep's identity fully present in how they play and the choices the players make, and this is part of why they are able to be so dominant. Pep's style is all about maintaining complete control of the game.
Like, with the early season draw to Everton (city got a player sent off after 44 minutes (everton one after 88), 19-6 shots), they are like 22-1-0 in games of importance this season. They've beaten all the best premier league teams, often convincingly. Contrasting with other managers that have managed 91+ point seasons (mourinho and conte), Pep's teams dominate possession and shots statistics, and this just.. makes the probability of those occasional screwup games much less frequent. Barring several key injuries I'm not surprised if they end up going 34-4-0 and win the Champions league, they look more consistently great than pretty much any other team ever has. Pep obviously deserves credit for this.
Transformer movie fan <3 haha im the same, i rarely hate any movie i see, i love every transformers movie there has been and religiously go to every one of them. Never gone out of a cinema before after a movie thinking, wtf did i just watch.
My feeling (almost) was of the South Park episode when the guys watched the new Indiana Jones movie and watched him get "raped" because it was so bad. That is nearly what i was feeling at the end with how Luke's character came across and the film as a whole.
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are u telling me that u did enjoy The Last Knight and u can still shit talk the Last Jedi ? common..
i liked transformers 1,2. #megahot
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EPT
