Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 76

On April 23 2015 09:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

Regarding the prequels, I have to repost this link: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/ because of how amazingly thought out this theory is.

Lucas knew exactly what he was doing with the prequels and it paid off. You could even make the argument that all the bells and whistles was to keep the kids entertained because of the more subtle plot (especially Episode I, which is all about how Palpatine house-of-cards his way into the Chancellor's office).

This is all very interesting and well-thought out and presented – my problem is that it’s far less impressive having not been constructed as such all at once. Lucas had only the vaguest outline of the bigger picture when he eventually decided it would be a six (or potentially nine)-part story and he had started in the middle. With Episodes IV, V and VI already made it was pretty easy to go back 15 years later and make the structure fit as you’ve proposed (and basically proven) it does. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it was EASIER to do that way – he practically had the outline for the prequel trilogy all laid out in front of him if he was just following the patterns already established by the original trilogy. “Ok, so Jedi started this way, I’m going to start Menace the same way but with these different characters/settings” etc. I fail to see how that’s such a great thing.

And let’s face it, the fact that the plot and character details create a nice pattern does not make up for poorly-written dialogue, poorly delivered by wooden actors being poorly directed as we got in the PT. Not to mention the whole prequel idea is an inexcusably stupid way to present the story. Where’s the dramatic tension? Anakin becomes Darth Vader. The Emperor rises to ultimate power. The Jedi fall. Obi-Wan and Yoda live to teach Anakin’s son, Luke. Boba Fett does…something or other. I’m trying to decide in which order to eventually show these movies to my son and there’s no right answer – each trilogy ruins things about the other, neither does much to particularly help the other (the most egregious omission being not to give the audience a real reason to care about Alderaan – if any world should have been made familiar to the audience it was Alderaan – would have made its destruction in ANH so much more powerful). If I show him the PT first all the great reveals in the OT are spoiled. If I show him the OT first we know pretty much every outcome of every event in the PT.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the read and I appreciate that you’ve shown there may be more artistic nuance there than meets the eye but it’s not enough to convince me that the PT aren’t bad movies when they clearly are on so many fundamental levels.

On April 24 2015 08:13 Manit0u wrote:


Please... Having a good and deep plot, wheels within wheels and what not doesn't help you at all if you can't present it in a coherent way. Just look at the article you linked - it took 9 pages of pretty much academic text with 15 references (some to actual academic material) to explain the basic premise behind the prequels? There's subtle and there's obfuscated bullshit.

Besides all that, even if it was all presented in a way that you could actually grasp at least some of it during a single viewing of the prequel trilogy, it would come to naught as the viewer is constantly assailed with:
a) horrible CGI

b) totally unnecessary scenes

c) bad dialogue

d) shitty camera work

e) even more horrible CGI
f) bullshit subplots that bring nothing to the main plot, only muddy it further and discourage the viewer even more

g) unnecessary kid service (really don't know how to call stuff that's there to keep 8-year olds entertained)

h) horrible lapses in logic and reason

i) some badly cast actors

j) shallow and empty characters

k) no real protagonist to associate with and root for.

I agree that the big meta-plot in the prequels was OK, but it was way too veiled, obscured by all the dung on the screen and thus hidden from the viewer. Perhaps people would rate the prequel trilogy better if it actually focused on the right parts of the plot, was filmed properly and so on. As it is, it's just 3 shitty movies that are painful to watch and age very badly due to overuse of green screen, CGI effects and advances in technology which make it all look worse by the minute.

Edit:

And just to prove my point, here's one of the comments for the article (comment #58)



That's why my kids will not watch the PT.

On April 24 2015 11:21 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
As for viewing order (mostly in response to comment #58), rings notwithstanding, 4-5-2-3-6 is a fantastic order. I've had a lot of success with this order (and similarly, mentioning there's a 1 but I'm not a big fan and it's not really necessary to understand the rest of the 6) and people have said mixed things about 2 but for the most part liked the rest, and the 5-2 3-6 interplay.

On April 24 2015 11:21 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
The CGI's actually aged pretty well for early 2000s technology. It doesn't look out of place today, other than the trend back to less reliance on computers.

I'd argue there wasn't enough. The deleted scenes in Episode III actually paint a really nice political picture of the situation that isn't quite visible in the final movie.

Set design was too closed. Cinematography itself was great.

Podracing carried on for a bit too long but it did show Anakin as a ridiculously good if not yet technically adept pilot. Which comes into effect at the end of the movie.

A legion of the Emperor's "best troops" also got beat by teddy bears.

Do refresh my memory. I'd actually say the rash actions in Sith were all warranted, with Anakin's psyche dropping down a slippery slope, and Mace reacting with haste, which was precedented in II (going from "keepers of the peace" to violently decapitating Jango, showing the Jedi losing their clarity), and also a bit understandable when he realizes their head of state has been the Sith Lord all along. I might've missed the rashness in the first two, though.

Stems from Lucas's shitty scriptwriting, I'd argue the actors did the best with the lines they were given.

I still contend Anakin has a lot more to bring to the table than Luke.

Which is kind of the point. There is no longer good or evil. This is a trilogy about the onset of confusion, the Dark Side, and people's interactions with and transformations from power.

On April 24 2015 15:50 shin_toss wrote:
4-5-6 1-2-3 ofc.. theres too much OT hipsterism(lol) I see here

On April 24 2015 22:12 Erasme wrote:
nostalgia glasses
each of your points can be applied to the original trilogy

On April 24 2015 23:20 Manit0u wrote:


Especially the point about there being 90% CGI in each shot...

On April 24 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:

To be fair, the OT is really hard to find without the 90s updates and re-releases. These all had pretty awful CGI replacing most of the puppet work and some practical effects from the original release. I don't think that they have ever released the original cut since the 80s, so most kids growing up on TL saw the song of the Ewoks, and the force ghosts, and the awful Jabba's palace dancing.

On April 24 2015 23:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

Replace CGI with claymation and puppets.

And concerning spoilers, that's why 4-5-2-3-6 works so well. You learn Luke is the son of Vader, then you turn the clock back to 2, where Anakin was 19, you see how he handles everything, then in 3 you learn Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Empire is created, backstory complete, back to Episode 6 (where you meet the Emperor again) and see how it all ends.

Jar Jar has like 5 lines in 2 and I don't believe he says a word in 3.

I watched all the movies last month and the CGI is pretty seamless. The only noticeable jarring thing was where Grievous does fancy stuff with lightsabers and Obi-Wan just kinda stands there since there's nothing in front of him.

Some of the scenes without lines are amazing. The one before Mace goes to kill Palpatine where Anakin and Padme are looking out toward each other says so much without any words.