I don't know that the prequels would even register any more discussion than Starship Troopers if they didn't have the Star Wars label attached to them. While there was some cool action scenes and individual parts worked ok, if the same exact movies were released without the official tie in to Star Wars I probably would have forgotten about them by now.
A lot of it is the acting and writing. Roger roger droid enemies vs Storm Troopers. Some of it is the lack of scope. Episode IV has the Death Star and the fate of the whole rebellion at stake. Luke's aunt and uncle get killed by the empire early on. Lea's planet is wiped out. The threat and evil of the empire is established. The droids never feel like a threat, especially with Jar Jar accidentally wiping out huge groups of them.
Episode one focuses on the blockade of a single planet... Darth Maul was cool, but they killed him and Qui-Gon off in the first movie. The light saber fight scenes were cool, but too much Jar Jar and R2 with C-3P0 comedy. Making C-3P0 Anakin's droid makes your galaxy seem smaller, rather than enhancing your story. Trying to scientifically explain the force via Midi-chlorians was a mistake.
This is a good summary of the problems with the prequels in general here. Summarizing, the original trilogy, taken as a whole, was about the redemption of Darth Vader. Beyond the costume and booming voice, what elevated Vader to mythological heights was his backstory. Darth Vader was once a great man, who experienced a tragic fall into darkness. What remained was a disfigured fusion of man and machine, entirely consumed by evil. This is the stuff of legends.
Fans expected to see the fall of this great man and legendary jedi, but the great man never came. Instead, we were treated to the tale of a whiny, arrogant brat who continuously defied his teachers and thumbed his nose at tradition. We were expecting a wise and powerful Jedi master. Instead, we were given a one-dimensional caricature of Maverick from Top Gun, minus the coolness.
Anakin Skywalker, as depicted in the prequels, can best be summarized with one word: annoying. He is self-centered, self-serving and ultimately trivial. We just want him to go away.
What they could have done is skipped Phantom Menace all together. Lucas could have centered the first two films on an intelligent, thoughtful Jedi master who was lured to the Dark Side. The third film would have then chronicled the crusade of a tortured, badass Darth Vader who traversed the galaxy hunting down Jedi. That would have been epic. Instead George Lucas gave us something very different: the adventures of an annoying hot-shot kid who somehow inexplicably morphed into Darth Vader.
What is puzzling is how a person who wrote the original trillogy ended up with such a mental degradation that created the prequels. I mean what the f happened? On another note, I have heard somewhere that the original Star Wars story was stolen from the Vedas.
On December 06 2014 05:38 karazax wrote: I don't know that the prequels would even register any more discussion than Starship Troopers if they didn't have the Star Wars label attached to them. While there was some cool action scenes and individual parts worked ok, if the same exact movies were released without the official tie in to Star Wars I probably would have forgotten about them by now.
A lot of it is the acting and writing. Roger roger droid enemies vs Storm Troopers. Some of it is the lack of scope. Episode IV has the Death Star and the fate of the whole rebellion at stake. Luke's aunt and uncle get killed by the empire early on. Lea's planet is wiped out. The threat and evil of the empire is established. The droids never feel like a threat, especially with Jar Jar accidentally wiping out huge groups of them.
Episode one focuses on the blockade of a single planet... Darth Maul was cool, but they killed him and Qui-Gon off in the first movie. The light saber fight scenes were cool, but too much Jar Jar and R2 with C-3P0 comedy. Making C-3P0 Anakin's droid makes your galaxy seem smaller, rather than enhancing your story. Trying to scientifically explain the force via Midi-chlorians was a mistake.
This is a good summary of the problems with the prequels in general here. Summarizing, the original trilogy, taken as a whole, was about the redemption of Darth Vader. Beyond the costume and booming voice, what elevated Vader to mythological heights was his backstory. Darth Vader was once a great man, who experienced a tragic fall into darkness. What remained was a disfigured fusion of man and machine, entirely consumed by evil. This is the stuff of legends.
Fans expected to see the fall of this great man and legendary jedi, but the great man never came. Instead, we were treated to the tale of a whiny, arrogant brat who continuously defied his teachers and thumbed his nose at tradition. We were expecting a wise and powerful Jedi master. Instead, we were given a one-dimensional caricature of Maverick from Top Gun, minus the coolness.
Anakin Skywalker, as depicted in the prequels, can best be summarized with one word: annoying. He is self-centered, self-serving and ultimately trivial. We just want him to go away.
What they could have done is skipped Phantom Menace all together. Lucas could have centered the first two films on an intelligent, thoughtful Jedi master who was lured to the Dark Side. The third film would have then chronicled the crusade of a tortured, badass Darth Vader who traversed the galaxy hunting down Jedi. That would have been epic. Instead George Lucas gave us something very different: the adventures of an annoying hot-shot kid who somehow inexplicably morphed into Darth Vader.
Thanks for this great summary, pretty accurately characterizes how I felt the movies were. I think the easiest way to summarize the problems with the prequels for me was that they regressed from targeting young adults/teenagers to targeting children.
It was because george lucas was a nobody and his editors/writers (and many other people) dare to give him a lot shit/criticism on his directing/script etc, the first trilogy was a collective of work from a lot of hardwork (and some genius). And then look at how he made the prequel movies when he has all the power (and money).
Midichlorians. thank you george lucas for destroying the dreams of thousands of millions of jedi/starwar fans
On December 06 2014 06:31 NukeD wrote: What is puzzling is how a person who wrote the original trillogy ended up with such a mental degradation that created the prequels. I mean what the f happened? On another note, I have heard somewhere that the original Star Wars story was stolen from the Vedas.
1. He stopped thinking he was mortal. He also was no longer in his artistic prime. Happens to lots of once-great artists. Authors and moviemakers are particularly vulnerable.
2. Well, it's heavily based on Joseph Campbell's work on myth. So yes, the Vedas, King David, fucking Strictly Ballroom, Wizard of Oz, Jason and the Golden Fleece, and a billion other stories that reflect the basic epic story that's burned into our subconscious.
On a more direct note, Kurosawa films form the most direct basis. Watch Seven Samurai for a hint as to why Jedi are like they are, and the general plot of Ep IV is heavily ripped from Hidden Fortress.
On December 06 2014 06:31 NukeD wrote: What is puzzling is how a person who wrote the original trillogy ended up with such a mental degradation that created the prequels. I mean what the f happened? On another note, I have heard somewhere that the original Star Wars story was stolen from the Vedas.
On a more direct note, Kurosawa films form the most direct basis. Watch Seven Samurai for a hint as to why Jedi are like they are, and the general plot of Ep IV is heavily ripped from Hidden Fortress.
Thank you, ur post was insightfull. You got me excited for watching Seven samurai and Ill do just that
On December 06 2014 06:31 NukeD wrote: What is puzzling is how a person who wrote the original trillogy ended up with such a mental degradation that created the prequels. I mean what the f happened? On another note, I have heard somewhere that the original Star Wars story was stolen from the Vedas.
1. He stopped thinking he was mortal. He also was no longer in his artistic prime. Happens to lots of once-great artists. Authors and moviemakers are particularly vulnerable.
What authors do you have in mind when you say that?
On a more direct note, Kurosawa films form the most direct basis. Watch Seven Samurai for a hint as to why Jedi are like they are, and the general plot of Ep IV is heavily ripped from Hidden Fortress.
There's a couple different scripts and outlines for Episode IV. One version was unquestionably a plagiarized version of Hidden Fortress with names simply replaced. As he rewrote multiple times, he eventually made it his own story. The final product, I believe stand on its own, though you could definitely where many ideas came from.
Goodness knows, I could never be accused of being easy on the prequels, but to be fair to Lucas, some traits that people identify as Lucas' worst failings were present in the early Star Wars films. For instance, Lucas' endless tinkering with the original Star Wars trilogy... I understand he was adding special effects when Episode IV had already gone out into theatres. I don't actually mind the 90's special edition, I just don't care with 'Noooo' Darth and Hayden in the special, special edition. Nor is tinkering with a story after publishing necessarily a bad thing. Tolkien reworked parts of published Hobbit to make it fit his transformed idea from the ring as a handy trinket to the Ring of Power. On the otherhand, perhaps wiser head prevailed when Tolkien was discouraged from rewriting the Hobbit entirely into the vein of Lord of the Rings.
Furthermore, some of the great story difficulties that people noticed in the prequels, actually had their origins in the original trilogy, and quite possibly because Lucas did not know until writing the second film that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker were the same person and until writing the third that Leia was his Luke's sister. (Some of the difficulties- what was Obi Wan's plan in hiding Luke on his father's homeplanet, and why provide no training to either siblings- http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/03/23/10-reasons-why-star-wars-obi-wan-kenobi-is-a-serial-jerk -see #7 and 8.)
Ultimately, the 'why' is largely an unanswerable question short of a whole lot of speculation and/or uncharitable interpretations of Lucas quotes. The fact is, we really don't have the required knowledge necessary to identify why then and not now. We can speculate that Lucas "stopped thinking he was mortal." But for all we know, the biggest mistakes we identified, he felt the most mortal about and had the most input from others. And the parts we think were and good and he was over-ruled by wiser head... could've been entirely from him. Guessing the creator's process doesn't actually help figure out 'wherein lies the badness' of the work. Although, I guess speculation is fun.
Owen Lars was actually Kenobi's brother in pre-AotC lore, not Anakin's. Given that Anakin would never have met them or probably even known about their existence due to the Jedi way, they made a decent hiding choice.
And Special Editions were a shitshow, even before the "Noooo" fiasco. Han shot first and all that. Also, the conversation between Vader and Palpatine in Ep V is horribly botched in the SE version. And, more generally, the CGI looks terrible. The lovingly crafted models and special effects from the 70s hold up fine, late 90s CGI is just cartoonish-looking. Oh, and did we mention the dialogue in Greedo's scene that gets repeated in Jabba's?
But yes, your point that speculating on what went wrong is a futile endeavor is quite right.
On December 06 2014 16:02 Falling wrote: Ultimately, the 'why' is largely an unanswerable question short of a whole lot of speculation and/or uncharitable interpretations of Lucas quotes. The fact is, we really don't have the required knowledge necessary to identify why then and not now. We can speculate that Lucas "stopped thinking he was mortal." But for all we know, the biggest mistakes we identified, he felt the most mortal about and had the most input from others. And the parts we think were and good and he was over-ruled by wiser head... could've been entirely from him. Guessing the creator's process doesn't actually help figure out 'wherein lies the badness' of the work. Although, I guess speculation is fun.
If you ever looked into the original trilogy you'd know that it was very much a collaboration of talent, if Lucas had had total control back then with yes-heads surrounding production, things might have turned out a little different for the franchise...... as in there wouldn't be one.
Ultimately, the 'why' is largely an unanswerable question short of a whole lot of speculation and/or uncharitable interpretations of Lucas quotes. The fact is, we really don't have the required knowledge necessary to identify why then and not now. We can speculate that Lucas "stopped thinking he was mortal." But for all we know, the biggest mistakes we identified, he felt the most mortal about and had the most input from others. And the parts we think were and good and he was over-ruled by wiser head... could've been entirely from him. Guessing the creator's process doesn't actually help figure out 'wherein lies the badness' of the work. Although, I guess speculation is fun.
I suggested you watch the Mr. plinkett review of SW and Indiana Jones to get an idea of just how most awful ideas from both films were directly from Lucas. In Indiana Jones, Lucas first wanted to make a haunted castle story ( ) but Spielberg had just done Poltergeist and didn't want to do something similar. Then Lucas suggested introducing aliens and throwing in some science fiction B movie in the mix and Spielberg caved. There is actually an interview of Spielberg explaining how he said yes to Lucas about aliens while looking like a father commiserating about that time he gave in to his 2 year old throwing a tantrum about Mc Donalds.
The initial Lucas idea was Indiana Jones and the saucer men from Mars and he said this about it: " They (Spielberg and Ford) wanted to go off on some other tangent. I said, ‘I’m not going to do that. I’m going to stick with this no matter what, so we either do this or we don’t. That’s it." "Finally, we got something that we could all compromise on and all be happy with. It wasn’t quite as wacky as I wanted it to be, but it still is subtle and nice and works really well and has the same idea behind it.”"
Lucas also wanted Indiana Jones to have a pet alien...
And that's with Lucas having opposition in Spielberg which he did not in SW.
^Reading the discussion so far and finding out things about Lucas I think it is safe to say that George Lucas is actually an uninspired idiot who took a lot of credit for others peoples work. Actually I kind of knew that after watching the prequels.
On December 03 2014 05:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On December 01 2014 05:13 zoLo wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHA
I showed that to my roommate and neither of us could quit laughing. The only part I didn't get though, was the rocks with the droid. Someone esplain pls?
In ep 4, when Luke was attacked by sand people and when Ben Kenobi came to rescue him, each of the edited editions added more rocks to the cavern where R2-D2 was hiding.
I have watched almost every plinkett review. I, for the most part, strongly agree with their criticisms of the films themselves. I don't necessarily agree with their stated causes of why Lucas did better in one and not the other. I think that moves too heavily into speculation territory.
I showed that to my roommate and neither of us could quit laughing. The only part I didn't get though, was the rocks with the droid. Someone esplain pls?
In ep 4, when Luke was attacked by sand people and when Ben Kenobi came to rescue him, each of the edited editions added more rocks to the cavern where R2-D2 was hiding.
I showed that to my roommate and neither of us could quit laughing. The only part I didn't get though, was the rocks with the droid. Someone esplain pls?
In ep 4, when Luke was attacked by sand people and when Ben Kenobi came to rescue him, each of the edited editions added more rocks to the cavern where R2-D2 was hiding.
This needs a pic. Original vs Blu-Ray:
"Enhanced Edition" at its finest.
I love the extra rock dude. It really enhances the non organic nature of the shot.
EPT
) but Spielberg had just done Poltergeist and didn't want to do something similar. Then Lucas suggested introducing aliens and throwing in some science fiction B movie in the mix and Spielberg caved. There is actually an interview of Spielberg explaining how he said yes to Lucas about aliens while looking like a father commiserating about that time he gave in to his 2 year old throwing a tantrum about Mc Donalds.![[image loading]](http://cbskool2.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/blu-ray-changes-episode-4-r2-d2-hiding-behind-rocks.jpg)
