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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 19 2011 10:41 ryanAnger wrote:
I just finished the series for the first time, and I can't help but say that the 4th book was easily the weakest of all of them. There were not enough Arya chapters, and far too many Dorne/Brienne chapters. Right now it just feels like the Dornish aren't really ever going to play a big role in the series, because of how many people actually ARE trying to get "in" with Dany. You've got the Greyjoys, the Dornish, and then Tyrion falls in there, and it's also inevitable that Jon and Dany meet as well, which may end up kindling some sort of fire.
Also, I'm very curious to see where Jaime will come into the story in the future, because after the inevitable downfall of House Lannister, I don't really know what/where he's supposed to go. If Cersei confesses about the incest, Tommen will be removed from the throne, Stannis will take it, and Jaime will at the very least have to enter exile.
If that is the case, I can see Jaime going to try to join Dany and Tyrion. I realize the issues that would cause w/ Dany, him being the Kingslayer and all, but Dany has been shown to be very forgiving. The question is, would she be able to forgive Jaime for killing Aerys (?) knowing Jaime's full reasons for why (Barristan Selmy would also help Jaime's cause in this, because he's told Dany before that her father actually WAS mad.)
Also, when Dany DOES descend upon Westeros, do you think Stannis would be willing to side with her? She technically is the rightful heir to the throne, and with the looming threat of the Others it would seem the best thing to do would be to put aside all differences.
The scenario I see is Jaime being forced to fight Tyrion in some capacity, Jaime defending the realm against Daenerys and Daenerys seeking revenge for the death of her father.
That seems like the kind of tragic scenario Martin might set up, considering the relationship between the two brothers has been the only one in the Lannister family that actually contains some semblance of love.
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Lannister, Baretheon,and Stark is on top of Dany's hitlist. They are the reason she is forced from the home she had such fond memories and being alone in the world. They are usurpers and brought death to her whole family. As forgiving and "nice" as Dany is, like Stannis, I think that she believes it is her duty to return to Westeros, take the throne, and avenge her family. Visery did a great job instilling/brainwashing her into recognizing that she has the blood of the dragon and her ultimate destiny. Even Jon, unless he is Rhaegor's kid, is on the list by virtue of being a Stark. As lovable and kind Dany is, its her job/destiny to take it to the usurpers.
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You do realize that she barely lived in Westeros at all right? She never even met her father or mother, and she traveled around the free cities for her entire childhood. How does she have such fond memories?
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She has fond memories of her home in one of the free cities, where she grew up. She specifically thinks of one house with a green (?) door. She has never been in Westeros. She was born on Dragonstone, but they left from there right after she was born.
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Jamie is never going to join Dany... One of her most trusted advisors is Barristan, and seeing as he was replaced by Jamie, I really doubt he would ever council her to join with him... and because she already HAS a reason to hate Jamie, I can't see it being hard to convince her of him being a snake.
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I think Jaime and Tyrion are going to have a massive confrontation. The whole part with Tyrion saying that he killed Joffrey is going to come back and bite him, IMO.
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On June 19 2011 19:48 snotboogie wrote:
I think Jaime and Tyrion are going to have a massive confrontation. The whole part with Tyrion saying that he killed Joffrey is going to come back and bite him, IMO.
yeah, probably, and just how stupid was that, he had 0 reasons to do it, one of the dumbest things in the books imo. Sure he was upset, but what could he gain from that?
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On June 19 2011 20:10 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 19:48 snotboogie wrote:
I think Jaime and Tyrion are going to have a massive confrontation. The whole part with Tyrion saying that he killed Joffrey is going to come back and bite him, IMO. yeah, probably, and just how stupid was that, he had 0 reasons to do it, one of the dumbest things in the books imo. Sure he was upset, but what could he gain from that?
Strong emotions>reason.
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On June 19 2011 10:41 ryanAnger wrote:
Also, I'm very curious to see where Jaime will come into the story in the future, because after the inevitable downfall of House Lannister, I don't really know what/where he's supposed to go. If Cersei confesses about the incest, Tommen will be removed from the throne, Stannis will take it, and Jaime will at the very least have to enter exile.
I don't see Cersie admiting to incest. What will happen, Tyrells will arrive and burn the church down to get to their daughter.
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On June 19 2011 20:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 10:41 ryanAnger wrote:
Also, I'm very curious to see where Jaime will come into the story in the future, because after the inevitable downfall of House Lannister, I don't really know what/where he's supposed to go. If Cersei confesses about the incest, Tommen will be removed from the throne, Stannis will take it, and Jaime will at the very least have to enter exile. I don't see Cersie admiting to incest. What will happen, Tyrells will arrive and burn the church down to get to their daughter.
But the church has an army because Cersei allowed them to field one in return for getting Westeros out of debt.
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On June 19 2011 20:18 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 20:10 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 19 2011 19:48 snotboogie wrote:
I think Jaime and Tyrion are going to have a massive confrontation. The whole part with Tyrion saying that he killed Joffrey is going to come back and bite him, IMO. yeah, probably, and just how stupid was that, he had 0 reasons to do it, one of the dumbest things in the books imo. Sure he was upset, but what could he gain from that? Strong emotions>reason.
i see that, but strong emotions can call for saying that You're a piece of shit i hope you die in a fire, not to make up a ridicuolus lie, which you tried to disprove for the past weeks, and which can gain you only more trouble. I cant imagine a situation where i'd just confess some outrageous sin because im pissed
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He just wanted to hurt Jaime in that moment, because the thing with Tysha is a defining event in Tyrion's life, and if I recall correctly, Jaime had just told him that she wasn't actually a whore, which is world-shattering for Tyrion. So maybe he just admitted to killing Joffrey out of pure spite, in the heat of the moment (which even though is not very Tyrion-like, this was an extremely sensible cord for him and also, he was escaping the dungeon so his incentive for telling the truth about his innocence was diminished).
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On June 19 2011 22:27 minus_human wrote:
He just wanted to hurt Jaime in that moment, because the thing with Tysha is a defining event in Tyrion's life, and if I recall correctly, Jaime had just told him that she wasn't actually a whore, which is world-shattering for Tyrion. So maybe he just admitted to killing Joffrey out of pure spite, in the heat of the moment (which even though is not very Tyrion-like, this was an extremely sensible cord for him and also, he was escaping the dungeon so his incentive for telling the truth about his innocence was diminished).
This.
Jaime was the only person that treated Tyrion as normal as it gets, his only family that didn't loathe him. Jaime had just admitted to him how he allowed Tyrion's wife to get essentially raped by an entire group of guards. It was the saddest moment in Tyrion's life and the only family member that he had a good relation with pretty much admitted to being a part of it.
Jofferey was Jaime's son, i think at that moment Tyrion just wanted to hurt Jaime.
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On June 19 2011 11:14 stork4ever wrote:
Unless Brienne survives, her storyline seems insignificant in the grand schemes of things. She ran around Westeros looking for Sansa/Arya and failed. With so many chapters devoted to her, it felt redundant and we were robbed of better chapters from the other POV's. But since its GRRM, it is possible for him to pull something out of his rear to make it worthwhile. If not, we got trolled by a bunch of useless chapters.
Brienne's chapters were used to show the impact the war has on the common people. Until her chapters the entire story was from the POV of nobles and the higherups. Her chapters gave a nice insight to the destruction and pointlessness felt by the commoners. Sure, she could have a role later and it be worth more than that. However, a part of me gets sad thinking that her chapters were some of the reason why original book4 had to split.
Also, when Dany DOES descend upon Westeros, do you think Stannis would be willing to side with her? She technically is the rightful heir to the throne, and with the looming threat of the Others it would seem the best thing to do would be to put aside all differences.
The rightful heir to the throne is Stannis. He has more right to it at the moment than dany. The only reason Dany has a right to it at all was through the targaryen conquest, the same thing the baratheons did.
Also the hinge for the Stannis/Dany alliance would be on Dany. As im pretty sure Dany's dragons are going to play a key role in the war against the Others, and Stannis/Melissandra are all about slaying the others now. I see Stannis swallowing his pride and letting Dany's army help him before Dany swallows her pride and lets the brother of the person who slayed her brother and entire family.
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Stannis will bend the knee.
He's a kneeler.
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On June 19 2011 21:10 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 20:20 -Archangel- wrote:On June 19 2011 10:41 ryanAnger wrote:
Also, I'm very curious to see where Jaime will come into the story in the future, because after the inevitable downfall of House Lannister, I don't really know what/where he's supposed to go. If Cersei confesses about the incest, Tommen will be removed from the throne, Stannis will take it, and Jaime will at the very least have to enter exile. I don't see Cersie admiting to incest. What will happen, Tyrells will arrive and burn the church down to get to their daughter. But the church has an army because Cersei allowed them to field one in return for getting Westeros out of debt.
Lol, army of badly armed peasants with a few knights?! Not even the Gold Watch would help them.
On June 19 2011 21:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 20:18 -Archangel- wrote:On June 19 2011 20:10 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 19 2011 19:48 snotboogie wrote:
I think Jaime and Tyrion are going to have a massive confrontation. The whole part with Tyrion saying that he killed Joffrey is going to come back and bite him, IMO. yeah, probably, and just how stupid was that, he had 0 reasons to do it, one of the dumbest things in the books imo. Sure he was upset, but what could he gain from that? Strong emotions>reason. i see that, but strong emotions can call for saying that You're a piece of shit i hope you die in a fire, not to make up a ridicuolus lie, which you tried to disprove for the past weeks, and which can gain you only more trouble. I cant imagine a situation where i'd just confess some outrageous sin because im pissed
In real life people kill each other in these situations, even brothers (and even for less). Jamie is lucky Tywin payed that price and not him.
As far as Stannis, he would bend the knew if she would spare him and not take away his position (lord of Storm's End). His family had a right to the throne only because of some Targaryan blood in them.
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Brienne's chapters were used to show the impact the war has on the common people. Until her chapters the entire story was from the POV of nobles and the higherups. Her chapters gave a nice insight to the destruction and pointlessness felt by the commoners. Sure, she could have a role later and it be worth more than that. However, a part of me gets sad thinking that her chapters were some of the reason why original book4 had to split.
Personally i felt the Arya chapters did a better job off that. Showing the sorrow of the common man, how they suffer as the nobles play their game of thrones doesn't mean that has to be all there is to it. He could have done a better job and weave that narative into a more intresting storyline.
The rightful heir to the throne is Stannis. He has more right to it at the moment than dany. The only reason Dany has a right to it at all was through the targaryen conquest, the same thing the baratheons did.
But before the Targaryens invaded Westeros was 7 seperate kingdoms. The unified government form of 1 king over all of Westeros did not exist before the Targaryens created is. As such the institution began with the Targaryens and they have the most direct claim to it. Since Dany never died she had a more direct claim to the throne then Robert ever did.
Also the hinge for the Stannis/Dany alliance would be on Dany. As im pretty sure Dany's dragons are going to play a key role in the war against the Others, and Stannis/Melissandra are all about slaying the others now. I see Stannis swallowing his pride and letting Dany's army help him before Dany swallows her pride and lets the brother of the person who slayed her brother and entire family.
GRRM is a cruell writer. I think it would be more tragic if Stannis, the man who is waging war simply over the fact that he feels he deserves to be king, the rule of law > everything, ends up as a rebel against Dany, the rightfull heir.
Lol, army of badly armed peasants with a few knights?! Not even the Gold Watch would help them.
Well we don't know much about the churches army at this point. Not much attention has been given to it so we don't know how strong it is.
By all logic ofcourse it's just an army of peasants and a few knights but remember, that is exactly what the average lord's army consists off. Remember how the Dothraki were considerd stronger because all of their men were warriors whilst a lot of Westeros armies consist of peasants forced into the army.
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I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom.
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I haven't read the books but I've been watching the show, I don't care about reading spoilers, I actually find them entertaining.
But I do have a question, in the show when Tyrion describes what happened to his wife it seemed that it was apparent that she was a whore. That when he was forced to watch the guards...do what they did...she was in it for the money and that it wasn't rape. If she was crying or screaming no or something of that sort I'm sure Tyrion would have suspected something and wouldn't have just took their word for it that she was a whore. Plus she left with the money, what am I missing?
If Jamie told him that she actually wasn't a whore why would Tyrion get so upset or was Jamie just lying and Tyrion just went rage mode?
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On June 20 2011 02:02 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +Lol, army of badly armed peasants with a few knights?! Not even the Gold Watch would help them. Well we don't know much about the churches army at this point. Not much attention has been given to it so we don't know how strong it is. By all logic ofcourse it's just an army of peasants and a few knights but remember, that is exactly what the average lord's army consists off. Remember how the Dothraki were considerd stronger because all of their men were warriors whilst a lot of Westeros armies consist of peasants forced into the army.
It is shown in Book 4 what they are. Their "army" is what is gathered in front of the church.
It is a rabble that barely got good weapons.
Tyrell troops are armed well, got discipline and good commanders. And better numbers.
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EPT
