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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom.
What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail.
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On June 20 2011 02:10 chroniX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom. What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail.
Yes, but her goal wasn't the only reason for following her. You get to see a lot of what happened to the countryside after the war through her eyes. I thought the journey was interesting in itself, and I guess I like her as a character. It is a central theme in this series that what people set out to do is not always what they will end up achieving, but whatever they do on the way is what the story is about. If that makes sense. And we don't know her last word to Lady Stoneheart yet. That may end up being important.
She wasn't bound to fail either. She thought about going to the Eyrie several times, but got sidetracked. It is very easy to say that she was bound to fail just because she did, but that was not what I felt the first time I read it.
On June 20 2011 02:07 shinyA wrote:
I haven't read the books but I've been watching the show, I don't care about reading spoilers, I actually find them entertaining.
But I do have a question, in the show when Tyrion describes what happened to his wife it seemed that it was apparent that she was a whore. That when he was forced to watch the guards...do what they did...she was in it for the money and that it wasn't rape. If she was crying or screaming no or something of that sort I'm sure Tyrion would have suspected something and wouldn't have just took their word for it that she was a whore. Plus she left with the money, what am I missing?
If Jamie told him that she actually wasn't a whore why would Tyrion get so upset or was Jamie just lying and Tyrion just went rage mode?
It was still rape. What 16-20 year old girl would want 50 guardsmen to f*** her in one day even if she was a whore and got payed for it?
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On June 20 2011 02:08 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:02 zalz wrote:Lol, army of badly armed peasants with a few knights?! Not even the Gold Watch would help them. Well we don't know much about the churches army at this point. Not much attention has been given to it so we don't know how strong it is. By all logic ofcourse it's just an army of peasants and a few knights but remember, that is exactly what the average lord's army consists off. Remember how the Dothraki were considerd stronger because all of their men were warriors whilst a lot of Westeros armies consist of peasants forced into the army. It is shown in Book 4 what they are. Their "army" is what is gathered in front of the church. It is a rabble that barely got good weapons. Tyrell troops are armed well, got discipline and good commanders. And better numbers.
I don't recall anything about that. What chapter would that have been?
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But it wasnt Jaimie's idea to have Tyrion's wife get raped, it was their father, Jaime only gets his spine back once he loses his arm.. otherwise he is just a pawn in the hands of his sister or dad. He even becomes a kingslayer because of his father. Sort of.
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On June 20 2011 02:27 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:10 chroniX wrote:On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom. What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail. Yes, but her goal wasn't the only reason for following her. You get to see a lot of what happened to the countryside after the war through her eyes. I thought the journey was interesting in itself, and I guess I like her as a character. It is a central theme in this series that what people set out to do is not always what they will end up achieving, but whatever they do on the way is what the story is about. If that makes sense. And we don't know her last word to Lady Stoneheart yet. That may end up being important. She wasn't bound to fail either. She thought about going to the Eyrie several times, but got sidetracked. It is very easy to say that she was bound to fail just because she did, but that was not what I felt the first time I read it. Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:07 shinyA wrote:
I haven't read the books but I've been watching the show, I don't care about reading spoilers, I actually find them entertaining.
But I do have a question, in the show when Tyrion describes what happened to his wife it seemed that it was apparent that she was a whore. That when he was forced to watch the guards...do what they did...she was in it for the money and that it wasn't rape. If she was crying or screaming no or something of that sort I'm sure Tyrion would have suspected something and wouldn't have just took their word for it that she was a whore. Plus she left with the money, what am I missing?
If Jamie told him that she actually wasn't a whore why would Tyrion get so upset or was Jamie just lying and Tyrion just went rage mode? It was still rape. What 16-20 year old girl would want 50 guardsmen to f*** her in one day even if she was a whore and got payed for it?
I'm sure there are people who would have terrible things done to them for enough money, and it's kind of her job...iono I just think if she wasn't a whore and if it was rape then Tyrion should have had some sort of inclination that she wasn't a whore while watching? His natural reaction, at some point, must have been denial and if there was anything in her behavior that would have proved her to not be a whore then I'm sure he would have seized it.
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On June 20 2011 02:10 chroniX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom. What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail.
True, but I liked that her story was a tragedy(if she's dead). Also, didn't Davos fail (been a looong time since I read book 2) and his actions are ultimately pointless. But most people I know love his character and chapters.
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On June 20 2011 04:17 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:10 chroniX wrote:On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom. What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail. True, but I liked that her story was a tragedy(if she's dead). Also, didn't Davos fail (been a looong time since I read book 2) and his actions are ultimately pointless. But most people I know love his character and chapters.
No, her story is not a tragedy. Ned is tragedy, she is just pointless.
And Davos is not dead. And he did more then her so far.
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On June 20 2011 05:02 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 04:17 happyness wrote:On June 20 2011 02:10 chroniX wrote:On June 20 2011 02:02 happyness wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people hate on the Brienne chapters. Because they're not "important"? If Martin were to only keep in the truly "important" chapters in the great scheme of things there would probably only be Dany and Jon and possibly Bran chapters. What makes ASoIaF so rich and different from other fantasies is all the different viewpoints and subplots from all over the kingdom. What made her chapters so "boring" for me was the fact that I knew that she wouldnt find Sansa in the places she looked. It was just painful to follow her cause she was bound to fail. True, but I liked that her story was a tragedy(if she's dead). Also, didn't Davos fail (been a looong time since I read book 2) and his actions are ultimately pointless. But most people I know love his character and chapters. No, her story is not a tragedy. Ned is tragedy, she is just pointless. And Davos is not dead. And he did more then her so far.
I agree, Brienne IS pointless. I don't understand what her chapters served the reader other than another mundane look at the country after the war. We already knew what happens to the smallfolk in gruesome detail from Arya's chapters when she was traveling with Yoren, as well as through some other chapters. I think the ONLY role Brienne served was to help Jaime find his spine, but that could've been done without a billion stupid chapters of her traveling the country.
While reading the book, I always had a sudden desire to skip Brienne's chapters as soon as I came up to one, but I ended up reading them anyway in case something important happened, but that was never the case, and I'm disappointed.
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On June 20 2011 02:54 Am0n3r wrote:
But it wasnt Jaimie's idea to have Tyrion's wife get raped, it was their father, Jaime only gets his spine back once he loses his arm.. otherwise he is just a pawn in the hands of his sister or dad. He even becomes a kingslayer because of his father. Sort of.
Isn't there more to the kingslayer story than that? Aerys had the pyromancers rig the city to explode (so he could turn into a dragon). It was never explicitly stated, but I think Jaime killed Aerys so that he couldn't send the message off.
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On June 20 2011 05:38 Sentient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:54 Am0n3r wrote:
But it wasnt Jaimie's idea to have Tyrion's wife get raped, it was their father, Jaime only gets his spine back once he loses his arm.. otherwise he is just a pawn in the hands of his sister or dad. He even becomes a kingslayer because of his father. Sort of. Isn't there more to the kingslayer story than that? Aerys had the pyromancers rig the city to explode (so he could turn into a dragon). It was never explicitly stated, but I think Jaime killed Aerys so that he couldn't send the message off.
Yes, that is correct, although I don't remember any dragon part of it, I thought he was just going to try and sacrifice the city to kill his enemies army. (Also because Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark)
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On June 20 2011 05:38 Sentient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 02:54 Am0n3r wrote:
But it wasnt Jaimie's idea to have Tyrion's wife get raped, it was their father, Jaime only gets his spine back once he loses his arm.. otherwise he is just a pawn in the hands of his sister or dad. He even becomes a kingslayer because of his father. Sort of. Isn't there more to the kingslayer story than that? Aerys had the pyromancers rig the city to explode (so he could turn into a dragon). It was never explicitly stated, but I think Jaime killed Aerys so that he couldn't send the message off.
Jaime did indeed kill both Aerys and the hand of the king at that time to prevent them from sending word to the alchemists to light the vats of wildfire that had been placed through the entire city.
Another example of the theme where characters have to choose to do something dishonourable (betray a vow, the first in 300 years) to save many.
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Hey I just finished the fourth book, so I'm inviting myself to the party.
I agree, Brienne IS pointless. I don't understand what her chapters served the reader other than another mundane look at the country after the war. We already knew what happens to the smallfolk in gruesome detail from Arya's chapters when she was traveling with Yoren, as well as through some other chapters. I think the ONLY role Brienne served was to help Jaime find his spine, but that could've been done without a billion stupid chapters of her traveling the country.
While reading the book, I always had a sudden desire to skip Brienne's chapters as soon as I came up to one, but I ended up reading them anyway in case something important happened, but that was never the case, and I'm disappointed.
The way I read Brienne's chapters is that she is what an ideal chivalrous knight is supposed to be. Brienne is a knight that Sansa might have dreamed of when she was younger. Of course one of the most interesting parts of this idea is the fact that, you know, she’s a chick – men and women aren’t exactly treated equally in terms of power and stature in this world. It’s been a constant throughout these pages with Cersei, The Greyjoy chick, the Vipers, and even with Daney (Although we’re not sure how that’s going to end.)
Anyways, in Westeros, true chivalry (and honor) is pretty much gone. Eddard was the epitome of honor and all good things, and look what happened to him (and that was like 2987 pages ago). By the time we're reading Brienne's chapters, honor and duty pretty much means shit (ie The Red Wedding). Someone like Jaime might be earning his honor back, but he still has a loooooong way to go I'd say, but I do believe the journey with Brienne rubbed off on Jaime and that brings me back to my point.
Brienne has been honorable and dutiful, and truly been knightly compared to some of the other characters. The two places I’ll note are at the Saltpans and the Inn afterwards. The only knight at the Saltpans raid was some old dude, who did absolutely nothing to help the townsfolk. He barred his gates in fear for his own life. Okay, understandable, but I would not nominate him for the kingsguard, ya know? Brienne, on the other hand, put her life on the line at the Inn to protect Gendry and the orphan kids when she was severely outnumbered. She took a risk and mocked the noseless dude enough, to the point where all the other outlaws stood by and watched as the two duked it out. Of course she eventually gets knocked out by Biter, and we see what happens to her later on…
The point is that Brienne still upholds the knightly ways (?) when there are such few honorable people left in the world, or so it seems. We’ll see what happens to her in the next book I guess though, but that sort of sums up why I think she’s interesting.
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I am so proud that most of the cast is from the British isles, although the stand out performance is from the American Peter Dinklage.
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I knew Brienne was supposed to "die" at the end of the fourth book before I read it, so you'd think i'd gobble it up, but I couldnt help but feel with certainty that Brienne is not dead after I had finished reading it.
Edit:
So I just read that the actress that plays Cersei hasn't read the books and doesn't plan to do so. I know a lot of people out there dislike her acting and that may add fuel to the fire.
I personally don't hate her acting too much yet, though I would certainly agree it hasn't been the best on the show by quite a bit and I am a little worried about it. Perhaps it's just relative though.
It's certainly a travesty, in my mind, that someone cast for a character that makes it until at least book 6 (assuming book 5 is along the same timeline as book 4) has no plans of ever reading the source material for her role.
Its a few questions down:
http://www.imaginemeandyouthemovie.com/publicity/qalena_june2011.html
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Cersais actor i'm really not happy with tbh. I thought she sucked in Sarah Connor too.
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The last episode in the show was pretty good, but they forgot to throw in the red comet that appears as her dragons hatch. I'm guessing they are saving it for season two. Also I like how they are changing Shae's character, they've made her a lot more intriguing than the book
On June 20 2011 13:46 Zlasher wrote:
I dont' even know what to say...its like the Dothraki are going to be irrelevant now to the story (unlikely, seeing as this is supposed to be an epic story they wouldn't just throw them out randomly). Gah I don't know what to think, I just want Rob to kick some fucking ass.
I pulled this quote off the regular thread. Season 3 is going to be rough on him 
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On June 20 2011 14:02 Strut wrote:
The last episode in the show was pretty good, but they forgot to throw in the red comet that appears as her dragons hatch. I'm guessing they are saving it for season two. Also I like how they are changing Shae's character, they've made her a lot more intriguing than the book)
Yea I like the changes as well, at first I was a bit confused but really, wihout any changes, it would be pretty hard to understand Tyrion's behavior concerning Shae, especially without the inner monologues and insight on Tyrion that TV shows can't use. Already in the books I felt that Tyrion was acting stupidly to all Shae related things ><
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On June 20 2011 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 21:10 zalz wrote:On June 19 2011 20:20 -Archangel- wrote:On June 19 2011 10:41 ryanAnger wrote:
Also, I'm very curious to see where Jaime will come into the story in the future, because after the inevitable downfall of House Lannister, I don't really know what/where he's supposed to go. If Cersei confesses about the incest, Tommen will be removed from the throne, Stannis will take it, and Jaime will at the very least have to enter exile. I don't see Cersie admiting to incest. What will happen, Tyrells will arrive and burn the church down to get to their daughter. But the church has an army because Cersei allowed them to field one in return for getting Westeros out of debt. Lol, army of badly armed peasants with a few knights?! Not even the Gold Watch would help them.
If we've learned one thing, it is that underestimating the new High Septon is a bad idea. That guy is really smart and he plays people heavily.
For a man who rarely compromises to compromise with Ceresi, you know he wanted the church's army for a damned good reason.
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I saw no hint in the books that Pycelle was more than a crippled old man. That scene in the last episode where he gets up and stretches then struts to the door all normal only to bend into old man form before opening the door was trippy to me. Someone clue me in if i missed the hints that he was actually more than just a dirty old crippled man in the book. I did miss the clues on renly and loras so that part of the tv show took me for a shocker too. So i'm saying it's possible i could have missed it.
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I have two very related questions...
First, I kept hearing that a character dies in season 1 that did not die in book 1. Any idea who that is? Was that completely untrue? I've read the entire series, and every death in season 1 was one that seemed either familiar or irrelevant.
Second, Zelniq mentioned a few pages back that something would happen that would surprise even the readers of the books. What was that? I don't remember any significant deviations from the book in this last episode.
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EPT
