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On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect.
I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned.
Then again if you look at qop, one of the reasons why she can go right-click quite easily is that she's able to kite people with her 5 seconds blink. So the closer illusiory orb gets to blink the more accessible right-click builds would be.
After checking stats, I noticed that qop's and Puck's stats are pretty similar and with two nukes Puck can farm rather quickly. So theoretically if right-click on Queen is somewhat viable it should be on Puck as well.
I mean you could bkb+blink in, use rift and ult and right-click until bkb's close to expiring and then orb out. You won't get qop's lvl of damage (coil is a joke compared to sonic wave and Puck needs 2k gold more and snowballs worse), but it might be better than going the pure utility route. Rift would have to be used more like qop scream, aka you hit one or two targets less but stay in a safer position.
Overall after thinking about it a bit I think I'd buff orb cd by a lot, down to 5-7 seconds. Make the hero really mobile so she can abuse cliffs and right-clicks become possible.
Or if Puck is supposed to stay a midgame tempo one-trick pony add coil break damage to normal damage. Maybe make aghs coil go through bkb entirely.
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Buff orb speed and distant. So same travel time. Crazy long range initiation
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On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned.
My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.)
Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two.
Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.)
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On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.)
I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game.
examples:+ Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right?
@your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea.
Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates.
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All this hero needs is for ult to work against bkb without agha. Make agha upgrade something else.
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On November 20 2015 02:06 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.) I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game. examples: + Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right? @your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea. Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates.
I think you aren't really taking into account that phase shift has 3.25 second duration at max level. If you have a 6 second cd illusory orb, which, mind you, lasts 3 seconds to begin with, you become actually unkillable with blink.
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On November 20 2015 11:43 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 02:06 Blackfeather wrote:On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.) I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game. examples: + Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right? @your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea. Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates. I think you aren't really taking into account that phase shift has 3.25 second duration at max level. If you have a 6 second cd illusory orb, which, mind you, lasts 3 seconds to begin with, you become actually unkillable with blink.
When you do no damage being unkillable is much less threatening, though I agree 6 seconds is a BIT QUESTIONABLE
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Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
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Her spells need to be buffed hard.
Puck's damage output should be bigger, and silence should be way more effective, because that silence sounds really underwhelming.
Ult is fine imo, same for phase shift.
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United States47024 Posts
The biggest issue Puck has is irrelevant to Puck himself but simply a matter of how the game plays. When tempo mids were still a big component of the game, Puck was near the top. He was a very regular pick around the time of TI3 and even going into the latter half of 2013. His fall from there has nothing to do with his skills not being good enough in any way, but that for the last 2 years, nobody really wants to play tempo mid heroes over farming cores. Now that offlane has become the main place to put a tempo hero, people have no interest in a mid who does less with farm than other cores.
Conversely, comparing him to offlane tempo heroes, he has a crucial shortcoming which is that popular offlaners such as Slardar and Tusk can apply pressure to mid as early as level 2, while Puck has no hard disable until level 6.
On December 06 2015 03:57 Blackfeather wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
Over Slardar and Tusk, Puck's advantage is that he's a strong solo laner and can play mid much better.
Over QoP, Puck's advantage is that he has a powerful gank timing at around 2k gold where he can take over the game and develop the other lanes. QoP's damage stays competitive with Puck for the first 7 levels but drops off from 8-10 because she maxes a non-damage skill second while Puck's burst damage continues to grow. She's a stronger lategame hero but Puck has a distinct advantage going into the midgame as a ganker/tempo controller.
The problem is, again, that these advantages are not taken advantage of in the way the game plays. Nobody cares about a tempo controller mid because you can support one offlane and play a farming hero mid. This isn't a problem with Puck, it's a problem with the game as a whole that extends to other heroes.
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On December 06 2015 10:16 TheYango wrote:The biggest issue Puck has is irrelevant to Puck himself but simply a matter of how the game plays. When tempo mids were still a big component of the game, Puck was near the top. He was a very regular pick around the time of TI3 and even going into the latter half of 2013. His fall from there has nothing to do with his skills not being good enough in any way, but that for the last 2 years, nobody really wants to play tempo mid heroes over farming cores. Now that offlane has become the main place to put a tempo hero, people have no interest in a mid who does less with farm than other cores. Conversely, comparing him to offlane tempo heroes, he has a crucial shortcoming which is that popular offlaners such as Slardar and Tusk can apply pressure to mid as early as level 2, while Puck has no hard disable until level 6. Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 03:57 Blackfeather wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
Over Slardar and Tusk, Puck's advantage is that he's a strong solo laner and can play mid much better. Over QoP, Puck's advantage is that he has a powerful gank timing at around 2k gold where he can take over the game and develop the other lanes. QoP's damage stays competitive with Puck for the first 7 levels but drops off from 8-10 because she maxes a non-damage skill second while Puck's burst damage continues to grow. She's a stronger lategame hero but Puck has a distinct advantage going into the midgame as a ganker/tempo controller. The problem is, again, that these advantages are not taken advantage of in the way the game plays. Nobody cares about a tempo controller mid because you can support one offlane and play a farming hero mid. This isn't a problem with Puck, it's a problem with the game as a whole that extends to other heroes.
@meta I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that she's bad in the current meta and has been ever since farming mids became standard.
Also with all the buffs to supports, the fact that they nowadays often temporarily get a lane to catch up in exp and the general slight power creep, her impact just isn't as big anymore.
@QoP comparison: QoP always deals more damage, even at lvl 10 with 1 in dagger (495 Puck with coil break, 665 QoP with SS). Given, a lot of that is over time, but even in burst without SS ticks QoP beats Puck (420 or 495 with coil break to 527). And after 10 QoPs damage rises again, to the point where at 16 her larger aoe ultimate deals almost more damage than Puck's entire combo.
The main advantage was imo that Puck could transition into an initiating role, which allowed for more greed on the offlaners, something [A] used a lot in their prime. But initiators nowadays initiate on one or two people and use their low cds to be disruptive instead of waiting for three or more people to gather at one spot. Puck doesn't have that luxury, her spells all have high cd and don't work on bkb targets unless you spend 4k gold to get a bad root spell.
I think that the Pure damage-treatment is a big factor why QoP as a tempo core could stay relevant. Puck has yet to get a spell that affects magic immune targets (let's be honest, aghs coil is clunky).
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buff orb mana cost pls
radiance octarine puck never forget
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On December 06 2015 14:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
buff orb mana cost pls
radiance octarine puck never forget
radiance burns while phaseshifted? That sounds like lots of fun.
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yea beesa did it to me in an inhouse it was painful
phase shift only has like 1.25 sec downtime too
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Again, assuming that mid will remain a farming role for the near future, puck needs one of two things. He needs to scale hard enough to justify a mid role, or he needs to be more reliable in the offlane and able to do more at low levels.
I would personally like to see him moved to the offlane.
If I were going to change him, I'd probably give rift a brief slow so that orb->rift ganks on mid were more effective from 3-5. You could throw on a bit more armour or ms or something to help his survivability as well, if you needed to.
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Puck was one of the most picked heroes in 6.82 still around a year ago. Two of the teams that were consistently doing well around that time and picking a lot of Puck were c9 with Fata and EG with Fear playing it. Around that time I think there were a few things that also contributed to making Puck better. For example Void, Naga, AM, TB, Lycan were all relatively popular picks for these teams. Drow Visage was also a thing. Enigma was a relatively common pick. Quite a few of the heroes that were rated high in other positions were heroes that like to take a lot of farm for themselves, benefit greatly from having lockdown from other heroes at all stages of the game, and can't exactly go for moves of their own all the time.
Nowadays heroes that don't want to go for very early roams are not as common in the safelane. For example QoP, Gyro and Ember are all heroes that are extremely strong for early skirmishing, want to use that power peak, so someone else has to take the space to farm. Also some of the current offlane options are such good heroes for frequent skirmishing without any items, prime example being Tusk. In 6.82 popular offlane picks included Bat, Tide, Jakiro, Centaur, Furion. All heroes that can't exactly initiate skirmishes with zero items properly, so a hero that can help with that rather early on from mid is useful.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 06 2015 19:59 Belisarius wrote:
Again, assuming that mid will remain a farming role for the near future, puck needs one of two things. He needs to scale hard enough to justify a mid role, or he needs to be more reliable in the offlane and able to do more at low levels.
I would personally like to see him moved to the offlane.
If I were going to change him, I'd probably give rift a brief slow so that orb->rift ganks on mid were more effective from 3-5. You could throw on a bit more armour or ms or something to help his survivability as well, if you needed to.
what if it caused a blind with 50% chance to miss instead of a slow? dream coil is already really good at holding people in place from 6 on, and you're likely not going to be leveling rift heavily from 3-5 anyway.
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just a random idea for puck:
what if you buff pucks early game escape and make his pre dagger initiation stronger? my idea would be to buff orb speed to ~850 and rescale phase shift to 1.75/2.25/2.75/3.25
with those changes the hero would gain more earlygame fighting power and is more likely to get an initation off before he gets his dagger, at the same time his survivability against dual lanes increases and both together should make him a decent offlaner or greedy support.
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add another second onto the silence or add a little more damage to coil is all he needs. honestly even if he doesnt get buffed at all, im not complaining. the hero is still good and when other heroes get nerfed or buffed and the meta changes, puck will find his place again
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On December 07 2015 05:41 hfglgg wrote:
just a random idea for puck:
what if you buff pucks early game escape and make his pre dagger initiation stronger? my idea would be to buff orb speed to ~850 and rescale phase shift to 1.75/2.25/2.75/3.25
with those changes the hero would gain more earlygame fighting power and is more likely to get an initation off before he gets his dagger, at the same time his survivability against dual lanes increases and both together should make him a decent offlaner or greedy support.
Giving puck a 3 second or longer duration on phase shift would all but guarantee a blink dagger escape. There is a reason it was brought below 3 a while ago.
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EPT
