EPTIf he's going to be an offlaner he needs a little more laning presence and some kind of pre-6 CC to gank mid.
If the frog is going to shake things up enough that tempo controller mids are a thing again, he might not need any changes at all.
[Hero] Puck - Page 5
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
If he's going to be an offlaner he needs a little more laning presence and some kind of pre-6 CC to gank mid. If the frog is going to shake things up enough that tempo controller mids are a thing again, he might not need any changes at all. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
personally, i hope the frog shakes things up a bit. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
You don't need to design a hero specifically so that he thrives at a certain lane. You give the hero good attributes so that teams will want to pick him for a function, and will find a way to lane him. | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 09 2015 15:59 DucK- wrote: Thing though is I don't like the suggestions on how to buff offlane puck. It is like we are altering the hero based on an existing concepts, trying to make the hero fit into the offlane model. I think the focus should be on the hero's niche, and that is the silence initiation and coil. You don't need to design a hero specifically so that he thrives at a certain lane. You give the hero good attributes so that teams will want to pick him for a function, and will find a way to lane him. Well it's potentially possible to run Puck as a dual off with something like an undying f.e.. Atm it's just not worth it however, because dual lane puck doesn't provide enough impact unless the player plays out of his mind. I think a big part of the reason is that the hero's abilities just aren't strong enough, but everyone else seemed to disagree with me or at least with my suggestion to buff his cd so that Puck actually deals damage in fights after his combo and has an incentive to stay around the edges of the fight outside of auto-attacks. I think the alternative would be to buff coil to a spell that scales decently even without break damage and reduce the cd to something that allows her to fight more. We are starting to see Centaur as poor man's tusk, so there definitely is space enough to play a hero who needs his 6 in the offlane. I think the big problem with Puck and bkb is that bkb removes silence and pre-aghs coil. Other initiators can blink stun and if the bkb-carrier isn't really fast he gets stunned and potentially chain stunned. Puck just doesn't provide any control against bkb-carrier. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
oh and that hero won't have to occupy mid, either. @duck niche picks are cool and all, but the niche that puck fills is entirely too limited, IMO. | ||
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Irratonalys
Germany902 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote: I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7077 Posts
On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote: Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic. qop has a lower BAT and her ult deals pure damage which means she's more relevant vs bkb heroes basically all the time | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Having blink means you can save orb to reposition after dumping yourself in the middle of their team, which is extremely important for a hero as frail as puck. It also guarantees orb damage on key targets, since being forced to engage with orb means it often misses. Skipping blink for dps wouldn't actually give you more damage, outside edge cases, and in most of those cases you're probably better off rushing dagon instead of rightclick anyway. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote: Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic. he means the ministun on latch, not on break... either that or think you missed the last part so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck though you're right to imply it would definitely nerf puck's early solokill potential | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 13 2015 21:44 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: he means the ministun on latch, not on break... either that or think you missed the last part though you're right to imply it would definitely nerf puck's early solokill potential Yeah nvm, I'm dumb. I sometimes use coil later on in ganks or skirmishes to keep people in place, so it makes a difference there, but more often than for tps I use it to restrict movement. On December 13 2015 10:16 tehh4ck3r wrote: qop has a lower BAT and her ult deals pure damage which means she's more relevant vs bkb heroes basically all the time Well the difference between the BATs is pretty small (0.1) and the difference comes entirely from the backswing. I doubt most moving people notice the difference. Yeah I'm not saying Puck is going to scale as well as qop against bkb, but maybe Puck stops being entirely useless against cores with bkb for their entire duration. On December 13 2015 12:33 Belisarius wrote: That, plus the fact that blink is about more than simply getting in. Having blink means you can save orb to reposition after dumping yourself in the middle of their team, which is extremely important for a hero as frail as puck. It also guarantees orb damage on key targets, since being forced to engage with orb means it often misses. Skipping blink for dps wouldn't actually give you more damage, outside edge cases, and in most of those cases you're probably better off rushing dagon instead of rightclick anyway. Yeah without blink with right-click you would have to play puck more like qop in that you run around at the edges of the fights and don't try to jump into as many people as possible to initiate, at least not unless you have a good follow up initiation. The idea was that you try to make a damage dealing core past 25 minutes out of Puck instead of a pure initiator that becomes useless against cores once bkbs are up and people get tanky enough to just sustain what Puck throws at them. The logic would be the same as behind right-click qop: Less impact initially for more later on. There can be little doubt that orchid+bkb+shiva+refresher qop brings a lot more to the table than orchid+bkb+shiva+mkb qop f.e. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 14 2015 11:40 evilfatsh1t wrote: leave puck alone. it only takes one meta change to bring puck back to life even without direct changes to the hero. hes still the best at what he does, which is doing consistent damage, crowd controlling and being impossible to kill. sooner or later heroes like puck will become popular again and then we will see blink euls hex on puck and everyone will cry for nerfs because you cant kill him and hes too annoying I don't really see Puck doing consistent damage at all. It's not very high, it is on a relatively long cds and high manacosts. There is no way Puck comes even close in consistent damage to heroes who are good at it, like DP, lesh, qop or even necro. Puck is entirely about the burst from the first round of spells. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
lesh's only ranged spell got nerfed and qop and necro requires you to get close to everything. no one can do 2 spells worth of damage every 10 seconds with a 99% guarantee that you will get out safely. trying to go high ground vs a puck who doesnt worry about mana is way harder than trying to go high ground vs a qop or a necro | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On January 02 2016 13:05 evilfatsh1t wrote: the only heroes that do good spell damage on a consistent basis is dp out of the ones you listed. lesh's only ranged spell got nerfed and qop and necro requires you to get close to everything. no one can do 2 spells worth of damage every 10 seconds with a 99% guarantee that you will get out safely. trying to go high ground vs a puck who doesnt worry about mana is way harder than trying to go high ground vs a qop or a necro Except for the fact that lesh only spamming the nerfed lightning storm still deals more dps than Pucks q+w-combo. Ofc that means that Lesh is in 800 range every 4 seconds, but lesh can just double his sustained damage output if he goes in, wich Puck can't. He also doesn't need to go b2b after throwing out 3 lightnings, so Puck's real cd is a lot higher than his 13 sec cd on rift. IF just buffed offlane (again), we won't see the comeback of the midlane initiation. I don't get why you are fighting against buffing a hero that has been bad for years now. IF just buffed her and she's still bad. Especially with all the purges in the game. Puck is the 8th worst hero in pubs atm and is at 7%p/b with 50% wr in pro matches. 5 out of 14 of her games were on Alliance in WCA, where [A] went 10:6 overall with a 3:2 record on Puck. So even from the tournament winning team s4-Puck isn't anything fearsome. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On January 02 2016 17:03 evilfatsh1t wrote: because buffing everything that is shit isnt the solution to balancing a game. you keep on buffing everything and eventually we will see a game that is no different to lol. implementations of new mechanics such as scaling damage and bigger numbers overall. IF has been buffing everything all the time. His patches always have a slight powercreep and his cds go down all the time but rarely up. IF usually nerfs two meta-heroes and buffs 40 more. So your solution is just to keep everything shit and wait for a complete meta reversal? Never buff anything to keep the game "pure"? On January 02 2016 21:20 spudde123 wrote: Idk about this "has been bad for years" talk. Puck was one of the most picked heroes of all the western top teams just one year ago with Fear, Fata and s4 constantly playing it. Ok, Puck's p/b is less than 25% for about a year now (peaking in the last patch at 1.7%). Before that she was at 27% and before that she hovered pretty stable between 30% and 55% p/b, so I guess she wasn't forgotten for years, just for the last one. Before she was at ~40%, but her winrate was never anything to write books about (mostly 0.4-0.5). | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
puck isnt a shit hero at its current state, he just doesnt flourish in the current meta. tweak shit here and there and things will change and puck may be brought back to life without needing to touch the hero. you sound like a child crying for a new toy from his mummy with your simplistic approach to game balancing. yes buffs are a part of patching, but there are better ways to change the game than to just keep giving powerups to everything. the fact that i even have to explain this is embarrassing enough already | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
that being said I don't think puck needs a direct buff. He's already one of the best laners mid (on par with viper), give him any buff he can basically become extremely OP | ||
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